00;00;09;07 - 00;00;21;05
Onjale Scott Price
Welcome back to another episode of The Conversation. I'm here with one of my favorite people, Reverend William Evan. And I realized, Rev, this is our ninth episode.

00;00;21;08 - 00;00;22;01
Rev. Will Mebane
No way.

00;00;22;06 - 00;00;39;20
Onjale Scott Price
This is our ninth episode. It's our eighth topic, our ninth episode. And I looked, and people are still watching it. So I'm excited that there are people in our Falmouth community and elsewhere who are looking. I'm hoping looking forward to hearing what we have to say and what our our guests have to say.

00;00;39;22 - 00;00;43;22
Rev. Will Mebane
And they're tuning in to see you, and you.

00;00;43;24 - 00;01;06;10
Onjale Scott Price
Right, right. Yeah. Well, for whatever reason, they're tuning in and they're listening. I'm glad to have all of our listeners, our viewers, with us. So this week we are talking about education and how does racism manifest itself in our education system. So this is going to be a really interesting topic because education definitely affects us all at some point.

00;01;06;10 - 00;01;26;21
Onjale Scott Price
We are all in school K through 12 hopefully and beyond. And so I'm looking forward to hearing how this conversation goes. We're going to first start with our people on the street and our question is how does racism exist in our education system? Let's hear what they have to say.

00;01;26;23 - 00;01;45;22
Lindsay Scott
I guess one thing I was thinking of is like, so just looking at the curriculum. So like, what do we learn about whose history do we learn about? What's the most important thing that we learn about? And are we learning about, all peoples history that are in the US, or is it just, a certain people's history?

00;01;45;24 - 00;02;11;07
Lindsay Scott
And I think when I was growing up, I think it was pretty, Anglo, European centric history. Especially in how we settled, the US. So I think we're missing out in different parts and even all the way to, just everyday interactions and like, who's teaching, and whose faces you see on our like for students see on a regular basis.

00;02;11;07 - 00;02;39;11
Lindsay Scott
And are they representative of who's in our community? All the way to the way we, reprimand people. So our punishment systems. Are they, like, a lot of times you hear the term like school to prison pipeline. So in different ways, like, are we really, trying to get the most out of our students in the way we discipline them?

00;02;39;13 - 00;02;53;02
Lindsay Scott
Or are we, kind of setting up the structures for later on their life? And are we really supporting them? Personally, I think that, within education,

00;02;53;05 - 00;03;27;11
Anna Fernandez
the racism is almost found in the root of the schooling and the learning, aspects of it in which, like, in which, there's a lack of diversity and inclusion, and equality within our education specifically and classes, such as history, where we're learning about, the history of it typically, history classes tend to focus more towards, the experiences of white people instead of, people of color, and even in English classes where, not all the time where were reading, inclusive

00;03;27;11 - 00;03;57;18
Anna Fernandez
texts about, about people of color and as well as written by authors who have these, experiences as people of color as well. I think that it's very important, there's a lack of diversity and a lack of equal representation within our curriculums, and equates, to discrimination and bias, from some students towards other students in situations that, I have seen and heard about from some previous conversations that I've had.

00;03;57;21 - 00;04;23;16
Anna Fernandez
I think that it just occurs because of a lack of understanding and a lack of being taught these inclusive topics, and we can focus on education, but as a community, if we're not living out the ideals that we want, then it's going to show up in our schools as well. So we can't just put this on the schools as a community, or we really living up to the ideals that we we think we are.

00;04;23;19 - 00;04;51;00
Onjale Scott Price
So we have just heard from our persons on the street the answer to their question, how does racism exists in our education system? So this is going to be an interesting one to talk about. We have a couple education experts with us, and yes, that includes Reverend Willis, one of those experts. So first, I'd like to pass it over to Mister Kevin Murray, the executive director of Massachusetts Advocates for children and a Maria, excuse me, formerly active in the Boston public schools.

00;04;51;00 - 00;05;03;18
Onjale Scott Price
When you had children in the public schools and a founding member of quest quality Education for every student. So, Kevin, if you could tell us how do you think racism exists in our education system?

00;05;03;20 - 00;05;27;24
Kevin Murray
Boy, that's a that's a big question. I think it exists in many different ways. Right. It exists both because people bring it into the institution. Right? Schools are not separate from our society. There are people in schools. And so one of the ways that racism gets into schools is people who have problems with racism bring it into the school environment.

00;05;27;27 - 00;06;02;11
Kevin Murray
And I think that's, especially adults, but not exclusively adults. So one way is we bring from our social experience into the institution, attitudes, that are prejudiced by way of race. The second way that I think racism gets into schools is that we have in a, in a society that's built around what one might say, white supremacy or white privilege, we have a tendency to construct our institutions in ways that reproduce that.

00;06;02;17 - 00;06;35;21
Kevin Murray
Right. We don't we're not able to have a white supremacist society by accident. One of the ways that that happens is we construct our institutions, not just schools. We were talking earlier about hospitals, the health care system, many of our institutions, I think we could go through the whole list of institutions. But I think in the case of schools, there are very specific ways that the schools are set up to reinforce attitudes that, disadvantage certain groups in society.

00;06;35;23 - 00;06;59;22
Kevin Murray
And race is one of the major ways in which that disadvantaging happens. So I guess I would start out by saying there are those 2 or 2 ways that racism gets into schools. We bring it into schools as people who have problems with racism in society. And second of all, like our other institution, we build schools in ways that reinforce racist attitudes.

00;06;59;24 - 00;07;22;05
Onjale Scott Price
I absolutely agree and actually echo some things that both Lindsay and Anna said on the street. With whose history are we learning? How? Whose voices are being centered and when we live in this, as you said, white supremacists, white privilege, society, those are the voices that are being centered. So definitely echo those sentiments. I'd like to ask Doctor Siano.

00;07;22;08 - 00;07;39;21
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, PhD in education and leadership and administration. I know you worked in the Oakland public schools for about 20 years, and you founded and Afrocentric school for K through ten children. So I'm hoping that you'll be able to tell us a little bit about that. As we talk about how racism exists in our education system.

00;07;39;24 - 00;07;49;00
Seyana Mawusi
Yes. And I love to one of the things I remember, even in the educational, program, I went to a historical black college.

00;07;49;00 - 00;08;14;04
Seyana Mawusi
So as we were being prepared, one statement has always stayed out of my mind. And it says education is a reflection of society. And I think that's and this is absolutely you can look at education and you can look at our society. You can look at our society, you can look at our education. I echo everything that Kevin said in his opening is that we whatever structure we have, we structure our educational system.

00;08;14;11 - 00;08;35;12
Seyana Mawusi
If you think back, way back, education was supposed to be to make people good citizens. If that's the one time that that's what we thought we would build our education. So we'd make people better citizens and in better citizens, we brought out a system of oppression, the system of racism. Some people are more, some people are don't have as much.

00;08;35;15 - 00;09;03;13
Seyana Mawusi
And we put that all together. So racism absolutely fit it into the societal needs. As we look and as you progress, look at the industrial revolution. As you look at everything else. Racism fits right. We we brought whatever we need it into the educational system with, which is so interesting. The only regard for one set of people, you know, you have two.

00;09;03;15 - 00;09;28;05
Seyana Mawusi
The big word two was assimilation. You had to I, I want we want everybody to be just this. And that is in itself not recognizing of peoples, cultures, peoples, languages. So this system of racism, education. Because sometimes when I talk to people, they're amazed. When you point out racism in education, we're all trying to get people to get here.

00;09;28;06 - 00;09;46;12
Seyana Mawusi
I don't understand what the issue is, but we also have people in society who still don't understand what the issue is. So I mean is constantly a reflection and racism like, you know, it's been embedded. It's an institutional practice that is embedded in our system.

00;09;46;15 - 00;09;53;25
Onjale Scott Price
As we speak. I absolutely agree. Reverend. Will I see your wheels turning?

00;09;53;28 - 00;09;57;02
Onjale Scott Price
What do you think?

00;09;57;04 - 00;10;23;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I don't have anything else to say, because, Kevin, initiatives that I, you know, that was going to be my first, first, comment was that our schools, our educational systems are a reflection of our society. And so we live in a racist society. So is there any reason to wonder that racism permeates those educational institutions, those systems and schools?

00;10;23;21 - 00;10;59;22
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I, I go back to the time when I had to attend segregated schools as a, elementary school student, intentionally segregated in the South in North Carolina. So that was my first experience of, seeing racism, institutionalize and and authorize and condone that intentionally, to keep, black and brown people from from getting an education.

00;10;59;25 - 00;11;31;17
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, so much I could say, as usual on the subject side, you know, I, I had the good fortune, of being elected to the Board of education in a town in Hamden, in Hamden, Connecticut. And I was then elected the chair of the board by the other board members. And, that just opened my eyes, in so many ways, to, how racism exist in, in our schools.

00;11;31;22 - 00;11;52;17
Rev. Will Mebane
And and the science is correct. I hope you don't mind me calling you so you out of you. I can call you Doctor Mosley. I can do that, too. But we'll see. But you can call me Will, so I can, you know, it just it's just everywhere. It just permeates everything. And like, and, Lindsay was saying, it begins.

00;11;52;17 - 00;11;53;25
Rev. Will Mebane
It's in the curriculum.

00;11;53;27 - 00;11;54;20
Seyana Mawusi
Yes.

00;11;54;22 - 00;12;25;18
Rev. Will Mebane
But what what what are we learning? What what books are being used in, in, in our classrooms, at the elementary level, through the secondary level and even in, post-secondary education. What are the what are the the the scholars. Someone just said this to me. I heard it someplace just a week or two ago. Who are the black scholars that, in your mind, right.

00;12;25;19 - 00;12;41;12
Rev. Will Mebane
Who are the black people you've read to help you shape and form your principles, your opinions, your values, your intellect. And the truth of the matter is.

00;12;42;01 - 00;13;10;24
Rev. Will Mebane
I'd be willing to say most white folk go through school without being exposed to many black scholars. And so what they get is what what are the white scholars and their perspectives on things. So is in the education system. It's in the hiring practices. Again, I think Lindsay said, you know, who do the students see, in front of them?

00;13;10;24 - 00;13;34;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Who are the role models? And I again, drawing on my experience as a, school board, member and chair, you know, we had all these efforts to try to diversify our faculty, our teachers and administrators. And you get the the age old response, oh, we can't find them or we can't find them or we can't find them.

00;13;34;02 - 00;14;01;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, we spent three years, turning over every leaf we could find across the country. And you know what? In a matter of three years, we increased. I forgot now and so long ago that the the percentage. But we went from something like 3% of the, teachers and the administrators being people of color to something like 28% or 38%, I think I forgot, but it was it was amazing.

00;14;01;27 - 00;14;26;28
Rev. Will Mebane
So it it can be done and I'll tell you right here and then I'll, I'll, I'll get off my little soapbox here. Right. Even right here in, in in Falmouth in our community, I have a terrific relationship with our school superintendent. I think Superintendent Doer is doing a phenomenal job. I think our heart's in the right place. She's really working with her team to, focus on diversity, equity and inclusion.

00;14;26;28 - 00;14;51;16
Rev. Will Mebane
And I think she's very serious about I think the team is serious about it, but I heard the same thing when I was talking with her, and and she was saying, I will, we can't find them. Or if we find them, they won't come because they can't afford to live in Falmouth. Because we know that Falmouth is an expensive, very expensive community in which to live.

00;14;51;18 - 00;15;17;17
Rev. Will Mebane
But I challenge that, I said, but isn't it expensive for the white base of white teachers? It's well, you know, it's it's expensive for both. So they're still able to attract white people to where I want to be teachers and administrators, in spite of the, economic challenges in the community. We should be able to do that with black, the administrators and teachers as well.

00;15;17;17 - 00;16;00;14
Rev. Will Mebane
So again, so much I love that, I have to say, but I do have a question with toss to, to to Kevin because we had a chance to have some conversation about it that has to do with also sort of curriculum, what's going on in the classroom. And that's the issue of of tracking. Tracking. That's something I did not know anything about until again, I was up close looking at the system, and I began to hear people talk about how students would be put on a, university track or college level track and other students put on other tracks.

00;16;00;17 - 00;16;38;07
Rev. Will Mebane
And I started to ask questions about it and realize that once you are put on that track, it's almost impossible to get off that. Once a teacher says, well, Will doesn't have the, the discipline, the skills, the, whatever it takes to excel on an A on a college level, at the college level. So we're going to put him on this non-college track level, I mean, and that happens early, early in, in, in a student's life.

00;16;38;11 - 00;17;19;14
Rev. Will Mebane
And that student is there forever until or unless someone intervenes, a parent or guardian, another teacher who comes in and advocates for the student and says, you know what actually will can do better than this? I've got here. I've seen him and I think he can excel if he was on this in this higher level, these advanced classes, so that and and look at the classes, look at the demographics, the number of students who are of color, who are on the non college level track, versus the number of white students who are on the non-college level track.

00;17;19;14 - 00;17;34;23
Rev. Will Mebane
And it becomes a stark reality for you. But Kevin, I know you've had, from your experiences in Boston, some experience around that issue of tracking would love for you to share that with our audience.

00;17;34;26 - 00;17;58;18
Kevin Murray
Yeah. Thank you. I'm happy to share a little of that. I, you know, I grew up in a small town, and I learned there what tracking was there. I thought I understood what tracking was. Then I came to Boston and I realized I didn't really know what tracking was before. Right. Boston is I don't know what the word would be for extreme tracking.

00;17;58;20 - 00;18;29;00
Kevin Murray
Right. But that's what that's the system that I ran into in Boston. And it's, you know, a system that the my children ended up going to the oldest high school in the United States, right. Which was founded in 1635. And but even then, that was 16 years after 1619. Right. So it was already founded in a certain context.

00;18;29;02 - 00;18;51;11
Kevin Murray
Harvard College was created a few years later so that the students graduating from that school would have some place to go. They didn't come to a place here in Boston. It was depopulated, right. There were native people living here. It was a very long time before any of those people had access to that school or that system.

00;18;51;14 - 00;19;18;20
Kevin Murray
So from the very beginning, we have the establishment of a of a system of education based on white privilege. Where is that gone now? Right now, Boston has three high schools that are called the so-called exam high schools. And in order to get into those schools, the students must take an exam. And in fifth grade, and they'll go they'll begin school in seventh grade.

00;19;18;20 - 00;19;47;11
Kevin Murray
And one of these exam schools, if they're successful. And this has been the subject and I think if you're in New York City, it's even more extreme than that. But, I explained earlier, there are people in Boston that I know in my social circles here who begin before their children are born, planning the process by which those students are going to get in to this one high school.

00;19;47;14 - 00;20;08;11
Kevin Murray
And it's often said, I don't want to stereotype people. So I know that there's a variety of views about this, but I can tell you that I've heard very many times from people who were clear with their kids as infants in the playground that if they didn't get into that school, they were not going to be in the Boston public schools, right?

00;20;08;14 - 00;20;31;09
Kevin Murray
That that was the school for their children. What's the result of that kind of system? Right. Not very many. Or I do not have experience of parents of color. Beginning at age three or age two, thinking in the same way about their children going to that school. Maybe it's just out. So maybe it happens and it's just outside of my experience.

00;20;31;12 - 00;20;58;26
Kevin Murray
But it's a school that ends up in a system that's 12.6% white students. That's the Boston Public Schools. That that one school that I'm talking about is over 40%, nearly 45% white students. And in a system that's 7%, six something percent Asian students, and there's almost an equal number of Asian students to white students in the school.

00;20;58;29 - 00;21;25;01
Kevin Murray
So Black and Latinx students who make up, very close to 80% of the students in the school make up something like 20 less than 20% of the seats in that school that I'm talking about. Right? And obviously, this does not happen by accident. And I, I must say, both my student, my children went to that school. So I'm not talking about something that's over there.

00;21;25;03 - 00;21;48;18
Kevin Murray
I guess in a sense, our family participated in this process, but we certainly were not thinking about this before our children were born. But there's a long history of this that we that how this got to be this way. It was not an accident, of course. And it's very tied in with the history of desegregation of the Boston Public Schools, which is well known, I think, to many of your listeners.

00;21;48;21 - 00;22;15;27
Kevin Murray
But there was an effort in the 1990s to say, we want to set up a system that's going to change this. We want to set up a system where we will affirmatively recruit Black and Latinx students to this school at work. I think it was 3 or 4 years that it operated that way. The composition of the school began to change, and a group of so-called white parents formed to challenge this in court.

00;22;15;29 - 00;22;39;13
Kevin Murray
Right. And the basis that this was a race based system of deciding who would get to this school. And I'm never my understanding is that the school, the school system withdrew its plan before it got there was a court decision. So there was never actually a court decision on it. But it went back to the old way of doing things, and the old way of doing things is perfectly fair, right?

00;22;39;16 - 00;23;03;05
Kevin Murray
It's 50% based on what your grades are in school, and it's 50% based on your test. And this in this school. What could be more fair? Right. If mostly if that if you end up with three times as many white children in that school as are in the whole system, well, what can I tell you? It's just a test that everybody took.

00;23;03;07 - 00;23;30;25
Kevin Murray
And we just looked at everybody's report card. So now I don't want to I'm sorry for going on so long about this. But now the Boston Public Schools, under pressure from parents and the community, especially the NAACP, but many community organizations, has changed again, this system to do it by a system where students will have access to this school based on ZIP code.

00;23;30;28 - 00;23;58;05
Kevin Murray
Right. So 20% of the students will get into the school based on the old way, but 80% will be sorted by a zip code system. The idea is that that will open up admission to more Black and Latinx students. What's happened that has also been challenged by a group of parents, not all white parents in this case, but a group of parents who say this is unfair to us, right?

00;23;58;07 - 00;24;21;20
Kevin Murray
Because by doing this zip code system, you're, you're, discriminated against students who happen to live in a zip code where a lot of kids want to go to this school, West Roxbury being one of those zip codes, but not just the only one. And so that is a court case that was just decided. And the judge decided that this was a legal system.

00;24;21;22 - 00;24;45;07
Kevin Murray
But there's every expectation that the plaintiffs are going to take this to the Supreme Court. So there's going to be a conversation, a national conversation, again, about race based education in Boston. So, you know, that's part of the you know, I think we could talk about tracking certainly for the rest of this time. But that's where tracking has ended up.

00;24;45;07 - 00;25;06;01
Kevin Murray
And, the way what we saw as parents in the Boston Public schools, and it was exactly this tracking process that got myself, my wife, many other parents involved as advocates to try and change the Boston Public Schools. And there's a lot of people still doing that.

00;25;06;04 - 00;25;07;24
Onjale Scott Price
Who?

00;25;07;26 - 00;25;09;05
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, right.

00;25;09;07 - 00;25;30;13
Onjale Scott Price
There's a there's a lot I feel like there's a lot to unpack here. I, I wanted to I want to ask Savannah something about the Afrocentric school that you founded in Oakland. And I'm I'm curious about that because I'm thinking about everything that Kevin just said. And I'm thinking about Rev talking about going to segregated schools, which is still kind of mind blowing to me.

00;25;30;13 - 00;25;51;01
Onjale Scott Price
I know, like, I know it wasn't that long ago, but still, like knowing you and and seeing you and hearing how you went to segregated schools. But thinking back on this whole context of how things are shaped, it was always taught to me like it was so long ago, like, why does it matter anymore? And this really puts in the context that it wasn't it wasn't that long ago.

00;25;51;01 - 00;26;10;18
Onjale Scott Price
You're still young in my eyes. Like it wasn't that long ago. So. So, So yeah, I'm hoping you can tell us a little bit about your Afrocentric school and why you started that. And maybe if some of the discussion that we're having about the tracking and the segregated schools is part of what led you to to found that.

00;26;10;21 - 00;26;29;14
Seyana Mawusi
Yes. I was teaching in public schools and I have a special education background. And if anybody knows anything about special education, still is to a large degree. But it was a dumping ground for any child who was misbehaving. If they were black or brown, I would work with students. And I kept saying, there's nothing wrong with this child.

00;26;29;15 - 00;26;57;26
Seyana Mawusi
Why this child? This program? And I just got tired of it. I was like, we have to do something else. And then one day, I just met a gentleman who was talking about all these things from African history. And I was like, we have to do something different. Not only do I believe that our students don't have to be at the bottom rung, you know, I used to see these statistics that when they looked at high school educations, whites and Asians had a high school education, maybe that was worth at 10th or 11th grade.

00;26;58;00 - 00;27;19;16
Seyana Mawusi
But African Americans and Latino extra down, like their high school education was like a fourth or fifth grader. That's crazy. And I was like, I got to do something different. I want to prove. And I said these words that African children, African descent can just make it, as you know, can can make it in the system. No criteria to get into the school.

00;27;19;19 - 00;27;39;13
Seyana Mawusi
All I was looking for are people and parents who wanted to work with me. And we started a small school in Oakland. I got up this high is about maybe 78 students. We're independent. We weren't charter, so we weren't getting any funds from anywhere because I didn't want anybody to dictate to me any curriculum. And so we made it African centric, based.

00;27;39;13 - 00;28;06;27
Seyana Mawusi
We taught the sciences. We taught everything. But we also talked about our story. When we talk about history, I always look at the words and I divide his story. So we want to make sure that we talk about our story, which is inclusive of everybody. So when you learn about Columbus, you learn about Zheng hey, you learn about Abu Bukhari, you learn about everybody who was on the waters at the same time.

00;28;06;27 - 00;28;31;26
Seyana Mawusi
There wasn't just one person. There was a lot of people out exploring. And so one of the things as we kept doing and working with students, when you talk about tracking to I tell people tracking makes it easy for just for the teachers. It has nothing to do with the students. It makes it easier for tracking. I can tell you stories because I was tracked, yes, 100 years ago.

00;28;31;26 - 00;28;52;10
Seyana Mawusi
They were tracking when I went to high school. But one of the things I decided, and this was the most amazing thing we we took away. Grace, let me tell you what I mean by that. Because the school was small, so we would have students who were we put them and started by ages. So we have maybe five, six and seven together.

00;28;52;13 - 00;29;14;21
Seyana Mawusi
Five because we were small, we didn't have enough to have a first grade with just one, you know, one teacher and two students. So we clumped them together. The most amazing thing students who were clumped in the first graders were able to move with the second and the third graders immediately. Now these are just regular, ordinary children. No test in what are the all African American?

00;29;14;24 - 00;29;36;06
Seyana Mawusi
They even made us take test our score. Our kids scored very high when they left our schools. Most of our kids skipped the grade or two, and most of our students were taking college courses at 11 and 12 years old. I'm just telling you, it can be done. I'm just telling you it can be done. If we start gives children a sense of who they are.

00;29;36;08 - 00;30;00;25
Seyana Mawusi
I don't care if they're have an African American background, don't care what kind of background put all the backgrounds in, make everybody equal. And we kept the curriculum. It was rigor. Our students had a lot of homework and our students were really good. And we taught the history, everybody's history. You didn't walk around thinking that the 13 colonies only started with Jamestown, Virginia.

00;30;00;28 - 00;30;23;26
Seyana Mawusi
The first colony was in Florida. Even though it was an American college, it was in Florida. Gives everybody access to be a part, gives everybody a sense to be a part. And I also one thing that was really important, we weren't going to always talk about Africans as slaves. We talked about who they were before they were enslaved.

00;30;23;29 - 00;30;47;24
Seyana Mawusi
It gives it a different context. And you know what's so interesting? When I see the kids who were at the school today, they all say to me, I was so comfortable myself whenever I went someplace because I had the same background, I knew who I was. That's it. You can't ask for that. And out of the school, I want to say 95% of the students who got we went up to 10th grade.

00;30;48;02 - 00;30;54;29
Seyana Mawusi
All of them went through college and are doing well. Wow. All of them. Wow.

00;30;55;01 - 00;31;25;17
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I just want to jump in on you, if you don't mind, here, because now Savannah's got my mind thinking about some other things, and, you know, you mentioned special Ed. You are so right. That is such a dumping ground for black and brown children who teachers consider to be behavior problems, which begins to label them, which then leaves them and do what we now know as the school or the prison pipeline.

00;31;25;17 - 00;31;41;29
Rev. Will Mebane
So they're the troublemakers and and so put them over in the special ed class. Right. And the same way with, with you. And so Tiana, I was like, why? I said, why are these children in special ed? You know, I know some of these I know their families and I know some of the why are they in special ed classes?

00;31;42;01 - 00;32;08;19
Rev. Will Mebane
And I know, Kevin, you have some experience around that as well that you can share. And the other thing, your comment reminded me of, it was this whole thing about, expectations, the expectations that the educators have for black and brown children. And those expectations come out of the racism that those educators bring into their classrooms. Right?

00;32;08;21 - 00;32;29;26
Rev. Will Mebane
They just automatically assume that a black or brown kid is not going to be able to excel. And it happens not just in, in, you know, secondary and elementary and secondary education. It happens with colleges and universities as well. Now, chair, there's one quick story. When I was admitted, I was admitted to I didn't want to go to college.

00;32;29;26 - 00;32;51;18
Rev. Will Mebane
And but I had a guidance counselor, a black woman in a mostly white school, literally grabbed me by the ear one day and pulled me into her office and she said, Willie, because that's my real name. So, Willie, where are you going to go to college? And I said, Miss Roland, Nancy, Roland, God bless her. And she.

00;32;51;18 - 00;33;14;20
Rev. Will Mebane
You rest in peace. I said, so miserable. And I'm not going to college. And she pulled me by the ear and she said, we're going to get you into college now. And I resisted, I resisted, I resist. So she gave me applications that went all the Fafsa, formed my family. My parent was like, what is this? You know, and, so I decided to apply to one school.

00;33;14;23 - 00;33;41;21
Rev. Will Mebane
I applied to only one school, the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, never truly expecting to get admitted. But I got accepted. I was accepted as a probationary, a little probationary basis. And my dad, took me over for the pre orientation discussion with the, assistant director of admissions. And he said to my father, no, forget it.

00;33;41;22 - 00;33;50;15
Rev. Will Mebane
He said to my father, now, Mr. Mebane, when Willie Flunks out.

00;33;50;18 - 00;34;18;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. Not if he flies out or. But when Willie flunks out. I don't want you to be surprised, because 70%, 77 0% of our black students can't make it here academically, right? Well, we got in the car and we drove to Durham from Chapel Hill, only about a 30 minute drive. And my father didn't say a word, but I knew what he was thinking.

00;34;18;14 - 00;34;43;21
Rev. Will Mebane
You better not left out. You better not look out. Long story short, I was Dean's list my first semester, I was Dean, so that's my second semester. Got to my sophomore year. I think I got this knocked out of here. This is easy, right? I didn't make the displacement semester, but sophomore year. But I got my act back together and I finished with it on the Dean's list.

00;34;43;21 - 00;35;01;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. But it was that expectation right there. Even at the University of North Carolina that you know, you're black, you're not going to be able to to excel. Right on. Let me toss it to you and see if you have anything to say about special education or anything else that. So y'all know, I put on the floor.

00;35;01;11 - 00;35;22;14
Kevin Murray
I want to speak briefly just about the the organization that I work with, Massachusetts Advocates for children. I don't know if people know of, Mr. Eubie Jones. People have heard of him. He's been around Boston for a long time. He was for a while the dean of the School of Social Work at Boston University. Really interesting man.

00;35;22;17 - 00;35;46;23
Kevin Murray
If I, I suggest if you can get him to talk on your show, he'd have a lot to say. A lot of it. He could speak on almost any topic. But in 1969, he was the director of the Roxbury Multi-Service Center to Social Service Agency in Roxbury. And what he was noticing was a lot of kids out of school, way, way too many kids that weren't in school.

00;35;46;26 - 00;36;07;09
Kevin Murray
So he said, I got to do something about this. So he put together a group of people to do a study to say why is it that there seem to be thousands of kids around Roxbury, thousands that are not in school? Right. So they did this study and they came up with three reasons why children were not in the Boston public schools.

00;36;07;12 - 00;36;31;26
Kevin Murray
Three primary reasons. Number one, racial segregation of the schools and the poor quality of the schools available to, black children, particularly in the city. Number two, no accommodation for disabilities of any sort. Right. So if your student had some kind of disability, there was no place for them in the school. Number three, we were talking about it before language access.

00;36;31;28 - 00;36;58;08
Kevin Murray
If the student came in not speaking English as a first language, there was no place for them. So you said, and if you want to read something, they the study they came out with, it's called How We Go to School, 1969. It's something anybody should read. Who wants to know about schools in Boston? But out of it, they formed what they said was the Massachusetts Advocacy Center, because we got to do something about this.

00;36;58;10 - 00;37;23;29
Kevin Murray
Three years later, they passed the first special education law in the country, chapter 766, which became the model for I.D., the federal law, and all the state laws and special education afterwards. And then two years after that, the the passed the country's first bilingual education law. So ever since then, you know, you might have thought, well, they got those laws passed, they could fold it up.

00;37;24;02 - 00;37;50;11
Kevin Murray
Ever since then, this organization has been working to try and implement those laws. And so that we've been working on special education in Massachusetts since it existed. And I think, you know, all the comments that people have made today about special education still ring true. And it's, you know, during the pandemic, we haven't talked a lot about what the effect of the pandemic has been on schooling.

00;37;50;13 - 00;38;33;27
Kevin Murray
But for families of students with with, disabilities, it's been a particularly hard time. And we know that, students of color are very heavily represented in those groups. Right. And it's very difficult to find out this. There's no published information that disaggregated in Massachusetts. Who our students with disabilities. So we did, Freedom of Information Act request, public records request because we wanted to find out, were it seemed to us that black boys in particular were heavily represented in so-called sub separate environments where, students with high needs are segregated.

00;38;34;00 - 00;39;02;02
Kevin Murray
I, you know, it was obvious that they were. But when we got the information from the state there, the black boys are over twice as likely to be in one of those segregated environments. As black as white boys are. Right. So the racism that we're talking about, or the racial prejudice that's in schools is heavily present in the special education environment, and Boston stands out, if any.

00;39;02;02 - 00;39;35;17
Kevin Murray
Any statistics about Boston will show you that compared to any other city, you know, there's a lot of bragging about Boston's public education system, and it deserves to be bragged about. There are good things about it. I'm not saying that it's all problematic, but in terms of this, this tendency to put children in special education and then segregate them in non-inclusive environments, Boston is off the charts on, and they I think they're honestly trying to do something about that now, but they have a very, very long way to go.

00;39;35;19 - 00;39;43;09
Kevin Murray
It's a huge problem in the city. Greater than. Almost greater than any city in the United States. Also.

00;39;43;12 - 00;40;02;19
Seyana Mawusi
I think schools are always trying to do something, even as I look back and look through the Oakland Unified School District, I think people are trying, but I also think we have to remember what, like you said, what are people still bringing with them as they come in, even as they come into put in new programs in place?

00;40;02;26 - 00;40;35;18
Seyana Mawusi
Some people bring them their biases, both implicit right with them. So even meaning good, this is a program we want to make sure we, you know, we we do this for all of us. We still click those biases in there. And all of a sudden there's little chips, little pieces, little chips, little pieces. So some programs that we absolutely want to be in and we the Mrs. statement is awesome.

00;40;35;20 - 00;41;02;24
Seyana Mawusi
We end up having something that is not totally representative of our mission statement, but the attempt and to try is there. So that's something we have to really look at because all school systems can say we're doing something, we're working, and I don't want to make any a light of any of that. But when it comes back and we look at the numbers, they're not really changing that much.

00;41;02;26 - 00;41;28;06
Seyana Mawusi
We're still if there's if we want to talk and I don't like the achievement gap, maybe the experience gap or the opportunity gap is a better word. Better says worse is still existing. Why? You know, one time there was this gentleman, who said that all these extra programs, they don't really work, we don't really need them. And one reason why people look at them, because after a while, it doesn't look like they're succeeding.

00;41;28;06 - 00;41;39;08
Seyana Mawusi
The numbers aren't jumping off the charts. That's what we have to look at. How do we really make an effective change in education for everyone?

00;41;39;10 - 00;41;53;28
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, that's excellent point. Say, and I think that's a good segue to our second question that we posed. And so I'll take a quick moment to to jump to our people on the street with our second question of how do we eliminate racism in schools?

00;41;54;01 - 00;42;03;02
Onjale Scott Price
So let's hear what they have to say, and then we'll continue our conversation.

00;42;03;04 - 00;42;32;00
Anna Fernandez
I think that as something I want to start by addressing is as someone who is not a person of color and does not have these experiences, it's important that, I cannot and do not want to speak for people of color when it comes to racism and racism in education, because I don't have this firsthand experience. So I think it's important, to be an ally and, help to amplify and listen to the voices of people of color, in our community and within the education system.

00;42;32;03 - 00;42;53;00
Lindsay Scott
I mean, I think the first step to a problem is that you have buy in from the community, that there is a problem. And I think a lot of times, you have people who are recognizing there's a problem and other people who think that it doesn't exist. And.

00;42;53;02 - 00;43;23;22
Lindsay Scott
How do you do that? I don't I don't know, but it's it's definitely it's a big issue. And we need to figure out the solution. Yeah. I think it's there's so many little pieces. Right. So I from from the get go, it needs to be you need to have community by it and not just tolerance of like okay, these people over here are doing their like affirmative action plan or diversity equity equity inclusion plan.

00;43;23;22 - 00;43;44;29
Lindsay Scott
You need the leadership from above. So like you need buy in from the superintendents or school committee that hey, there is an issue and we are committed to working through this, together and putting the might of, you know, our leadership behind this because we think it's an important issue. Work on yourself as well as in your community.

00;43;44;29 - 00;44;14;13
Lindsay Scott
But it also takes strong, committed leadership. So it's going to last like past, you know, we're in a moment right now where I think a lot of people are focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion and justice issues, and that's really awesome. But we need that momentum to keep going. What if, if and when or if it ever becomes a non like popular issue?

00;44;14;15 - 00;44;54;12
Lindsay Scott
Leadership needs to still be on board, with rooting out the different ways that racism has kind of ingrained itself in the system. If you were able to give Falmouth High School students the opportunity to, have these conversations through using networks such as playbook, I think that within, the school, I think we'd certainly be able to, become a more diverse and unified community, and hopefully be able to work through some of the problems of, racism within our education, which I think is so incredibly important, that we need to overcome together.

00;44;54;15 - 00;45;21;03
Onjale Scott Price
So we've been having this incredible discussion about racism in our education system. And one thing that I thought was really interesting, that Lindsay brought up is kind of what you were talking about of before we we broke is acknowledging that we have these issues within our systems and acknowledging that there are people who maybe don't necessarily buy into the fact that we have these systems and that we need to change them.

00;45;21;10 - 00;45;34;22
Onjale Scott Price
So I'd like to continue the conversation. Talking about CRT, you mentioned that we have these programs, but they don't always work and that people come in with their biases. So what are some things that we can do to help eliminate racism in our schools?

00;45;34;24 - 00;45;38;19
Seyana Mawusi
You know, I think the hardest thing and the best thing is to have conversations.

00;45;38;21 - 00;45;58;14
Seyana Mawusi
I think we have to talk. We have to say we have to let people, teachers, administrators have their feelings. We, you know, and the always here in education, this is the unfortunate. And as the administrator, I'm going to say this. We never really get the time. I got to make sure I have this state document done. I have to make sure I have this done.

00;45;58;18 - 00;46;13;21
Seyana Mawusi
I had to make sure these numbers are correct. I have to make sure these and so therefore, at the end of the day, I don't have time to talk about this. And so we never get it done. We net we want to do what a lot of people do. You just don't ever get it done. We have to have the conversations.

00;46;13;27 - 00;46;34;16
Seyana Mawusi
We have to watch our language. We have to watch our words. We have to look words at disadvantage, risk, at risk. All these words that create an idea in our minds. Those words literally have to take out of the system anything that says there are four tiers, like you're maybe in the college track, you're in this track that's a racist track.

00;46;34;16 - 00;46;54;18
Seyana Mawusi
I don't care how you put it. So I think we have to. Not only if we can't get a chance to talk, we first have to look at the language. We have to look at our language. And what are we saying? What do our labels look like? Who's in those labels that that's one way if we're never going to have the conversation.

00;46;54;21 - 00;47;19;02
Seyana Mawusi
But I think conversation is going to be the key. And I mean conversation, you know, absolutely. Listening to people, it's amazing to hear and getting a chance to do that. Some of the biases that people have in education, I'm quite sure all of us, everyone has a great story that has something to do about bias. And then some people changing their minds because they didn't know that was not true.

00;47;19;04 - 00;47;27;06
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, I've got an interesting upbringing. I switched schools every year from second grade to 10th grade. Oh my. Oh yeah.

00;47;27;06 - 00;47;29;11
Kevin Murray
So I have never heard that.

00;47;29;14 - 00;47;48;24
Onjale Scott Price
I didn't move. I mean, at one point my mother and my stepfather got married, but it was in the same, same town. But every year, second grade, third grade, I skipped the fourth grade. But fifth, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Every year I was at a different school. And when I would ask my mom every year, I'm like, why am I going to another new school?

00;47;48;24 - 00;48;06;05
Onjale Scott Price
I went to private schools. I went to private Christian schools. I went to public schools. And she's like, oh, I just haven't found a school that that challenged you yet. And now thinking, hearing this conversation, I'm wondering, I'm wondering if some of those schools tried to put me in those tracks. And she was like, no, we're not doing this.

00;48;06;05 - 00;48;26;27
Onjale Scott Price
We're trying somewhere else. It's something that I feel like I need to have a conversation with her about now, because I've, until now, never really understood why there would be a reason for her to move me around so much, but maybe she saw something in the schools or in the teachers that she knew was not going to be conducive to me being the best that I could be in my education.

00;48;26;27 - 00;48;53;04
Onjale Scott Price
And so she moved me around. It has kind of made me who I am with my ability to just make new friends all the time, because I had to do that for years. But, you know, now it's now it's got me. This conversation has really got me thinking about that. And I also wanted to comment on something Reverend Wilson earlier about the expectations and having it not just K through 12, but post high school and in, in school, college.

00;48;53;04 - 00;49;16;12
Onjale Scott Price
I mean, having professors have these expectation that you're not going to do well because you're black. I literally had a professor. I went to his office for some help. I was in aircraft dynamics class. Really difficult class. I was learning how to design aircraft, and I didn't know what I was doing. And I went to his office for some help, and he said, well, I mean, people like you just generally don't do well in my class.

00;49;16;15 - 00;49;33;04
Onjale Scott Price
I said, people like me. He's like, yeah, black people. And then I ended up not doing well in this class because I couldn't go to him for help. And so I ended up having to take another course. But but the point that I'm making is, Reverend. Well, you're right that it's not just K through 12. I know it's a lot of our focus in this conversation.

00;49;33;07 - 00;49;57;19
Onjale Scott Price
And importantly, because that's the that's the years that we're most vulnerable. But even in college, those those same people who have those biases ended up becoming college professors. And so we still deal with that as we go on. So we talk about eliminating racism in schools. It's not just elementary and high schools. It's all schools. In my opinion.

00;49;57;21 - 00;50;20;23
Seyana Mawusi
And I think as long as we have continue to have the issues that we have in society, those we're breeding more people who will come up with some of the same biases, you know, just look what just happened recently, as we look at from George Floyd, all the different we're forming opinions about that you can't help but form an opinion.

00;50;20;25 - 00;50;49;20
Seyana Mawusi
What do we do with those opinions? Who are we saying them to? How does it translate into a math lesson, into a history lesson? How does that translate? Those biases are they keep coming? Somehow we have to stop and say, yo. How do we level this playing field? So when everybody walks into the school, everybody is on the same page.

00;50;49;22 - 00;51;10;13
Seyana Mawusi
And Yes. And the reason why I hesitate because there are times I think, you know, I'm just really happy for the experience of having the school. So I can say that I absolutely know that children can make it and they can make it. And once you give them a sense, they can make it even if they come up against.

00;51;10;20 - 00;51;31;09
Seyana Mawusi
And we all have some of those professors who say, hey, you shouldn't even be in here. I don't know why you came to my door. Some children would that, given them a sense of who they are, can go through that door that we have to do a better job of laying the pebbles? Absolutely. Giving everybody the same the same advantage.

00;51;31;11 - 00;51;32;06
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah.

00;51;32;08 - 00;52;04;16
Kevin Murray
No, I really, I think there's a place for white people in this conversation that we have to think a little bit about. How are we talking, what are we contributing to this conversation, what are we doing and when? The idea that conversation is somehow an important part of the solution is really important. And I think people, people like myself, white people need to be able to speak to each other about these issues.

00;52;04;18 - 00;52;42;20
Kevin Murray
Right. One thing I learned early on in organizations is that sometimes there's a sense that if there's a few people of color in the organization, that somehow they bring the solution to the problems around race. And luckily, I had some people who were willing to kind of set me straight on that early in my life that, really, it was the I was participating in the system I was criticizing by sitting back and waiting for, activists of color, black people around us to raise these issues and make sure they got dealt with people.

00;52;42;26 - 00;53;07;21
Kevin Murray
Black people will raise these issues, no question about it. But, it's wrong for, I think, white parents and schools, etc. and it's not easy, right? I'm not suggesting that it's an easy thing to, raise to your white friends a question about something that happened in an interaction that you saw or experienced. But I think it's a very important part of the solution.

00;53;07;23 - 00;53;33;15
Kevin Murray
And I want to remember that when my kids were both in the school that we're talking about, there were two girls in the school who decided that they needed to do something so that people would hear what it was like to be black in this school. And so they recorded being kids with their phones. They recorded a series of videos and they created a hashtag called Black Hat.

00;53;33;15 - 00;54;08;18
Kevin Murray
Bless that. I really recommend people look at, because those girls being willing to do those videos created a situation in which this had to be discussed in the school, and not just among the black students. It ended up being a situation where the headmaster at the school left, which was a painful situation for a lot of people. But just by, you know, that got into the newspapers, you simply from students to parents to teachers, everybody in the school community had to be talking about this.

00;54;08;20 - 00;54;35;23
Kevin Murray
And the last thing I'll say about sort of getting racism out of schools is I talked a lot and sort of use this idea of cultural competence for a long time about white people understanding other people's cultures or trying to. And I also not too long ago got sent straight on that, that I might be able to make more of an impact if I talked about cultural humility.

00;54;35;26 - 00;55;08;02
Kevin Murray
Right. Talk about understanding the fact that different cultures were really important to any environment that I was in, but not to project the idea that I was or or expected other people to be competent in terms of culture, but that it was more important for me to speak about and try and practice cultural humility, understand that other people's cultures were really important, and that I had a lot to learn about those cultures more, then project myself as some kind of competent person in relation to culture.

00;55;08;04 - 00;55;25;19
Onjale Scott Price
I like, I like that, I like that a lot. Speaking to the story you mentioned about the young women sharing stories at their school, that's something that we've done here in Falmouth, actually, I'm a member of the Woods Hole Diversity Advisory Committee, and one thing we started doing was having these listen up sessions, as we call them.

00;55;25;26 - 00;55;53;06
Onjale Scott Price
The first one was just sharing stories of people of color in the Woods Hole scientific community. But then we worked with Falmouth Academy, which is our private school here in Falmouth High School, and we put on another event, but we just shared stories from the students of color, and we shared them to whoever wanted to come. So as an audience of students and parents and members of the community, and we did it in a way where we just shared their stories, there was there was no conversation about it.

00;55;53;06 - 00;56;20;01
Onjale Scott Price
There was no dialog. This was just sit and listen to what your students of color are experiencing here in your schools. And there was also one story from a young lady who, was an ally, who shared about when a substitute teacher came in and used inappropriate language and what it was like for her, and then her realizing, well, if I'm this offended about it, what was it like for all of my classmates of color?

00;56;20;03 - 00;56;42;03
Onjale Scott Price
And so while I absolutely agree that that conversation are important, we felt like in this particular instance, it was important just to share and not have conversation so that people could have that that cultural experience of you're never going to know what it's like to feel these things. No one's ever going to say these things to you. But this is what was said to me.

00;56;42;03 - 00;57;03;18
Onjale Scott Price
This is what was done to me and how it made me feel. And it was a really powerful event. And the high school was looking to to put on another one of those events, because it was just so important for people to to gain that understanding of what the students go through. So I, I think that that for, for at least for the schools, was a good first step because they didn't even know what they wanted to have conversations about.

00;57;03;18 - 00;57;12;04
Onjale Scott Price
They didn't even know what the experiences were. And so that was a good first step to then lead to some conversation and hopefully some some actual action.

00;57;12;07 - 00;57;13;20
Kevin Murray
It's a great story.

00;57;13;23 - 00;57;43;24
Seyana Mawusi
Is it would be great for all the listening stories one time or however, I'm not talking about this or families that come here from high school. I'm just saying after this is to also bring the teachers back and say, what did you hear? Yeah. What did you feel when you heard that? Is it possible to happen here at the school, you know, to to begin to begin to take the awareness, not a shaming, not a blaming, but again, to take the awareness and take it in.

00;57;43;26 - 00;57;59;26
Seyana Mawusi
So once you hear all these stories, then it would be incumbent for the schools to say to the adults in the school to say, wow, did you hear this story? Did you hear this story? We don't need to know who said it, who did it right? How does how does that make us feel? What does that make us look like?

00;57;59;28 - 00;58;24;07
Seyana Mawusi
How are we being represented to to everybody? I think that would be a great follow up and a beginning of desensitizing or having culture humility, because now you're hearing but now you're also taking a moment to internalize, especially as it relates to schools, I guess, for businesses and everything to yes, yeah, that's that's an excellent idea. I will add that to my ever growing to do list of things that I should.

00;58;24;09 - 00;58;29;11
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Reverend. Well, what do you think? How do we eliminate racism?

00;58;29;11 - 00;59;01;22
Rev. Will Mebane
I've been taking lots of notes here. This is just some good stuff. Good stuff? The the comment about that Kevin made about the, you know, somebody, somebody pulling his coat. They used language from the street, maybe, to move away from talking about cultural competency to cultural humility. Reminded me of what, Anna Fernandez said, one of our people on the street, you know, she said, you know, I'm I'm not going to presume to be able to speak for people of color.

00;59;01;24 - 00;59;24;00
Rev. Will Mebane
That's humility. That's coming from high school. Student. Right. I'm not going to be presume that I can speak for people of color. But then she went on to say that she, wanted to be an ally. And what I would say, not only do we want Anna and others to be allies, but we need them to be accomplices in making the changes that we talked about.

00;59;24;00 - 00;59;49;09
Rev. Will Mebane
So, yeah, we need allies, but we also need the campuses. And when I think about this, this question of, you know, how do we eliminate racism and the programs we've tried and the the seminars we've gone to and the webinars and the, trainings we've gone to and still and still it exist, right? Not just in our schools, but in society.

00;59;49;11 - 01;00;28;03
Rev. Will Mebane
And I was having a pretty intense conversation yesterday with one of my colleagues, here on the Cape and Islands and, I, I did to him the cabin. What you said someone did to him. I really challenged him in a in a very direct way. And I said, you know, the problem is, as as Seattle was saying, we have all of these programs and everybody comes with good intentions, but the programs aren't working because of lots of things, and the programs aren't working, in my humble opinion, is because the programs are designed to impact the head.

01;00;28;25 - 01;00;56;05
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. And the kind of transformation that we are talking about that's needed in our schools and elsewhere in society. What has to be transformed are people's hearts. People's hearts had to be transformed. And I believe we're never going to deal with this issue of race racism in our country until people's hearts are changed right. So how do you begin to do that?

01;00;56;05 - 01;01;23;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, the Listen Up series that you were talking about and and I hope you'll take Sanusi's advice and think about putting another one of those. And, I love the idea of having teachers listen and then respond to how it touched their hearts. Not intellectually, not intellectually, but did it speak to your heart? Right. And then we can have those kind of tough conversations that Kevin's been having with folks about.

01;01;24;00 - 01;01;57;16
Rev. Will Mebane
All right, then what do we do? What kind of actions do we need to take? So I did, and I think it was also talking about in the curriculum, we need to make sure that our textbooks are inclusive. That and it's not just a history textbooks. I think, she said. But it's got to be the English books. You know, everything has got to have got to have an intention about making sure the full story, the full breadth of humanity is included.

01;01;57;16 - 01;02;30;04
Rev. Will Mebane
And I get nervous again, going back to my Board of Education days, you know, I forgotten what the percentage, maybe it's Tiana knows, but I don't know. Some incredible percentage of all of our textbooks. Come out of Texas and are based upon what the Texas State Board of Education deems is appropriate. Right. And we just had a couple of years ago, they wanted to eliminate references to slavery, certain things.

01;02;30;04 - 01;02;57;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. If we're still relying on Texas and I have family in Texas, parts of Texas, I love, you know, don't hit me up with all your hate mail about, you know, I'm beating up on Texas. But if that's really where we are concentrating our energy and effort, our moneys to develop our textbooks based upon what's coming out of Texas, we're going to still be in the same in the same situation.

01;02;57;27 - 01;02;59;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it.

01;02;59;24 - 01;03;35;08
Seyana Mawusi
Does one thing and also two, I feel bottom line, we have to talk about history. We have to talk about the historical perspective. When you understand how the housing laws and housing codes were written to exclude people, we brought that into our educational system, like Kevin was talking to earlier, people bringing them in. When you look at how education was designed, when you look at even when we Chinese immigrants were coming in to work on the railroads, all the other things that have been done to all the groups of people, when we understand history, it helps us understand, oh, that's what I came from.

01;03;35;10 - 01;03;46;24
Seyana Mawusi
And do we still have to keep it? Because that's what they used to think when we, you know, look at like when we talk still about, the police being brutal, what the police were way back as slave patrols.

01;03;46;24 - 01;03;50;02
Rev. Will Mebane
How long now are you preaching now? So. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead.

01;03;50;04 - 01;04;15;23
Seyana Mawusi
So. So I'm saying if we can get people to see how it got started and see that some of it came from just somebody just had an idea, we can help people change and say, do we still want to continue to practice that? This practice was way back. This has no substantial barrier to today. Yet we still keep that mindset.

01;04;15;23 - 01;04;48;02
Seyana Mawusi
We still keep that practice. We have to understand history. We have to understand the words that were used so that people can begin to understand this is where this came from. If it wasn't true, this is what we did to get this bill passed. This is what we did to make this a law. This is what we said and did, and we need to absolutely say those things so people can understand that a lot of things that people think are true are not true.

01;04;48;04 - 01;04;57;21
Seyana Mawusi
They're not true. That also helps build cultural humility. Learning the truth and where it came from and how it evolved.

01;04;57;24 - 01;04;59;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Amen, Amen. Oh.

01;05;00;02 - 01;05;10;15
Onjale Scott Price
Oh. All right, I don't I don't want to wrap this up, but I've got, unfortunately, we got to wrap this up, but I feel like we could keep going. Oh, yeah.

01;05;11;26 - 01;05;31;16
Onjale Scott Price
I want to respect everyone's time. I want to thank you so, Yana, for joining us. Thank you, Kevin, for joining us. Rev. Thank you, as always, being a wonderful co-host with me. Thank you to all of our viewers. We hope that you are enjoying the show. As I mentioned at the beginning, this is our ninth episode and we're going to keep going.

01;05;31;18 - 01;05;42;01
Onjale Scott Price
Thanks to Deb and Alan at FCTV for for making this run, and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of The conversation. Take care. Bye bye. Thank you.