00;00;09;07 - 00;00;36;09
Onjale Scott Price
Welcome back to the conversation. I am your co-host, Angela Scott Price. And I have the wonderful reverend Will Melvin. Fantastic co-host. Today we are going to be talking about race and religion. But before we get the program from those of us as part of the conversation, we want to say we stand with our Asian American and Pacific Islander family.

00;00;36;12 - 00;01;06;08
Onjale Scott Price
We hear you. We see you and we grieve with you. The events last week were egregious, outrageous, and incredibly hurtful, not just physically for those who lost their lives, but for us as a country and a community. So we stand with you all. We support you. We love you. And we are here for you. So with that, we'll move into today's show, which is race and religion.

00;01;06;11 - 00;01;32;06
Onjale Scott Price
So this is going to be an interesting topic to have Reverend Will on. And we do have other veterans who will be joining us today. But first let's hear from our persons on the street. Our first question posed to them was how does religion perpetuate racism and racist stereotypes? So let's go to our people on the street and see what they have to say.

00;01;32;09 - 00;02;03;03
Rabbi Elias Lieberman
The question of, the manner in which religious systems perpetuate racism and racial stereotypes, I think is a bit of a complicated one. So much depends on which faith, community, which religious tradition you're examining. Certainly, those of us who are, part of the larger Jewish, Christian, Islamic tradition know that there are problematic passages in the scriptures that many of us deem to be sacred or foundational.

00;02;03;06 - 00;02;42;13
Rabbi Elias Lieberman
And, some of that leads to racist conclusions or the conclusion that some people are inherently inferior because of what the scriptural tradition suggests. I think one of the most, telling examples of that is the story of Noah and the sin, which is said to have been committed against him by one of his three sons. And it is that son who was identified in the Bible as who is by tradition the progenitor of black African people, and because of that sin which is charged against him.

00;02;42;15 - 00;03;01;16
Rabbi Elias Lieberman
There has been a curse associated with him and therefore his descendants. So I think that's, you know, a prime example of ways in which faith traditions, sometimes in their roots, have problematic texts and ideas. The legacy of which we still suffer from.

00;03;01;18 - 00;03;29;17
Carrie Fradkin
It was implicit in the culture that whites were was superior to blacks, and that that translated into the church. Teachings. And they tried to back that up with their versions of biblical verses. They were, Far as I'm concerned, they were twisted around to suit their purposes.

00;03;29;19 - 00;03;43;16
Rev. Nell Fields
I think one of the, the most obvious ways is, that our faith communities tend to be.

00;03;43;18 - 00;04;18;02
Rev. Nell Fields
Segregated. I mean, Martin Luther King said that Sunday morning is probably the most segregated time in. In the United States. So when you walk into the majority of Protestant churches. They tend to be all white. And, it it's a very subtle way, maybe not so subtle way of reinforcing the fact that, you know, we separate when it comes to, to worshiping.

00;04;18;04 - 00;04;36;05
Rev. Nell Fields
You don't even need to say anything. You just walk into. A faith community. You walk into a church, a Protestant church. And if you're white, you're going to see a lot of people like you. And if you're a person of color, there's a tendency not to see people like you.

00;04;36;07 - 00;04;57;10
Onjale Scott Price
So you've just heard some very interesting takes on the question of how does religion perpetuate racism and racist stereotypes? So this makes me think of, an example. My aunt lived in Texas. She lived, in Fort Worth, and she's a woman of color, a black woman. And she went to this church and she had an excellent experience.

00;04;57;10 - 00;05;08;27
Onjale Scott Price
She thought the whole sermon was great. She had a great time. And then afterwards, they very kindly told her, we think you might like the church down the street a little better next time. And she thought.

00;05;09;00 - 00;05;09;20
Onjale Scott Price
No, this is.

00;05;09;20 - 00;05;30;23
Onjale Scott Price
This was great, I enjoyed it, it was wonderful. And they're like, yeah, well, we think you like the one down the street a little bit more. And it wasn't until the third time that they insisted that she realized, oh, this all white congregation doesn't want to have me back. And I think of that story often, but let's move on.

00;05;30;25 - 00;05;46;29
Onjale Scott Price
So I'd like to introduce Reverend David Cormier, the minister of the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship Church. Excuse me, not church Universalist Fellowship here in Falmouth. So, David, what do you think about how does religion perpetuate racism and racist stereotypes?

00;05;47;02 - 00;06;08;18
Rev. David Kohlmeier
I think one of the ways religion perpetuates this stuff is by often not willing to talk about it. So and by preferring kind of nice, happy, bland, platitudes. Right. So we all love each other. We're all children of God. And now that's true. But that can that can be kind of a dodge. But we're not we're not racist here.

00;06;08;18 - 00;06;31;26
Rev. David Kohlmeier
We just love everybody. I think the discomfort majority white congregations have even have the conversation is a big part of what perpetuates it. So you have the overt stuff like what Rabbi Elias mentioned of like, the scriptural history that kind of openly promulgates a white supremacist ideology. But I think what's much more common is deferring it to heaven.

00;06;31;29 - 00;06;51;05
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Well, that'll all get fixed someday in the future. Or, or just falling for the trap of. Well, it's a shame those people are racist in those other churches. Thankfully, we're not that way here. I think those are the chief ways I observe in more progressive majority white congregations. These things getting perpetuated.

00;06;51;07 - 00;07;14;24
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, absolutely. And so I'd like to introduce Robin Joyce Miller. Robin is a retired educator, artist, poet and poet and public speaker who taught for 30 years in the New York City school system. And you also grew up in a black Congregational church. So I'm definitely interested in what you think, having the opposite, experience of being in a black church.

00;07;14;27 - 00;07;35;22
Robin Joyce Miller
Well, actually it's interesting. I have a unique experience because by coming to the Cape, I go to an all white church and I go back and forth. I've gone back and forth to my black church, white church, black church, white shirts, and it's very interesting. First I want to say that I thank you for inviting me. It's a wonderful pleasure to be here.

00;07;35;28 - 00;08;03;00
Robin Joyce Miller
The black church really focuses on social justice. I believe that ministers, pastors, when they prepare a sermon, they really thinking about their parishioners and their lives. And in the black church, the minister is going to think about the parts of the Bible that do deal with social justice. And how that works in a white church when they deal with the parishioners.

00;08;03;06 - 00;08;24;22
Robin Joyce Miller
It's social justice is not really an issue. And I feel that it doesn't come up so much because it's not an issue. So in a black church, it is, you know, in a white church it's not. Now, if you have a mixture of people, well, let it starts to change. I have to say though, I had to be brave to first go to the white church.

00;08;24;23 - 00;08;45;03
Robin Joyce Miller
My husband even said when I when we moved there, I said, I'm going to check out. And because I'm congregational and Congregationalist. And so we go to a Congregational church in New York and I try it out. The oldest congregational church on the Cape. When I first went there, it was amazing. I went to see if God was at that church.

00;08;45;06 - 00;09;09;20
Robin Joyce Miller
And as far as in my show, I even talk about, yes, God was there because there was Sylvia who met me at the door and she took one look at me. It was amazing. She took a look at me and said, you linked her arm in mine and said, you are sitting with me. And that was amazing. It was as if God just came down.

00;09;09;24 - 00;09;18;18
Robin Joyce Miller
I don't believe all circumstances and situations are like that, but that's how I see a back and forth kind of situation.

00;09;18;20 - 00;09;21;24
Onjale Scott Price
Interesting. I look forward to hearing a bit more about that as as we go.

00;09;22;01 - 00;09;23;02
Onjale Scott Price
Throughout the show.

00;09;23;04 - 00;09;44;13
Onjale Scott Price
Thank you. I'd like to introduce the Reverend Natalie E Thomas, a deacon in the Diocese of Massachusetts and an Episcopal Church fellow serving at Saint Barnabas Memorial Church here in Falmouth. You've led organizing movements in Boston, New Zealand and Kenya. And you were also an Episcopal missionary in Kenya. So I'm sure you also bring some diverse perspective to this as well.

00;09;44;13 - 00;09;50;03
Onjale Scott Price
Could you tell us a little bit about how you feel religion perpetuates racism and racist stereotypes?

00;09;50;05 - 00;10;11;23
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Yeah, I'm happy to, you know, it's so interesting when Kerry was talking on the video and she was talking about the theology that the church created to justify the racist systems and the, you know, in the wider, community. And I think for me, it's kind of a chicken or an egg question. You know, I don't know if I would even just say that the church perpetuates racism.

00;10;11;23 - 00;10;54;19
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
I think the church was part of what established racism in our in our country, which is so hard to acknowledge. Like David was saying, that's really uncomfortable for me to say. I've given my life to serve in an institution that's so interwoven with this, you know, this really painful system. But I think back to, you know, at, in the 1800s during the transatlantic slave trade, that there was this dilemma, right, of of white slave owners to say, well, we want to Christianize these people so we can subjugate them, but if we Christianize them, then we have to treat them as equals.

00;10;54;22 - 00;11;25;17
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
So you have these people making these foundational decisions to both our faith and our country, you know, that, I'm not sure can be separated from, you know, from one another. And so when I think about that as a church and I think about what does it mean as someone who's part of a, Episcopal church, which is my missionary work, so intertwined with colonialism to not just on an American scale or thinking on on a global scale, what does it mean for us to not perpetuate racism?

00;11;25;17 - 00;11;51;29
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
It's it's really enjoying our foundations, you know? And so I think that how, I would just echo what, what David said that unless we're really willing to look at every aspect of how we gather, the things we sing, the words we're saying, then we're perpetuating racism. I mean, it's it's to me, there's no stagnant. You're either undoing it or your or your perpetuating it.

00;11;52;01 - 00;12;21;26
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And the I guess the last thing I'll say is that I think that what is, maybe implicit about being part of a faith tradition is, is there some sort of, how do you how would I say this? Like, assumption that we're doing things in a good way or morally like we're morally good people because we're, you know, and and I think that, again, it's hard to unlink morally and good from whiteness in the way that society, you know, works.

00;12;21;26 - 00;12;49;04
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And so I think when we're thinking about creating multi-racial, multi-faith communion or multiracial communities, well, you even any time you're, forming, cultivating a multiracial faith community, we have to be intentional about not making whiteness the norm, right? So it's like, you know, not just welcoming, but undoing the assumption that when you come, you're going to come as a white with white norms and things like that.

00;12;49;04 - 00;13;09;04
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
So I think that that's how the church, the church perpetuates it because our, our normative way is a white way. You know, in, in, in, majority white spaces, obviously. Right. That's what I'm speaking to. Yeah. So I guess I should say a little bit at the beginning, but two things that I was thinking about as I listened to folks.

00;13;09;07 - 00;13;37;22
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, absolutely. I, I tried to read stamp from the beginning last year and I couldn't get to the whole thing. It's, it's a it's an intense book, but it's, it's full of amazing information and, and knowledge. And one thing that I, I had to stop reading for a while because I had to process it, was learning about how the Bible was used to, to, allow slavery, how how they use it to, to justify slavery at almost every turn.

00;13;37;22 - 00;14;01;27
Onjale Scott Price
It was like, oh, we're going to use it in this way. And, and at some point that didn't make sense anymore. So when I use this different verse in the Bible to justify it and, and really reflecting on that, how our country is, you know, based on religious freedom, but not quite, and how, just like you said, the idea of we want to Christianize these people, but not really, because if we actually did it the right way, we wouldn't be able to have them as slaves.

00;14;01;29 - 00;14;12;04
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. So, Reverend. Well, I'll pass it over to you. What are your thoughts about religion perpetuating racism and racist stereotypes?

00;14;12;07 - 00;14;45;02
Rev. Will Mebane
How much time do we have? Yeah. Oh, Lordy, lordy, lordy. So. Yeah, I agree with a lot has already been said, both by the people in the street and from the panel here. And, and I'll just share one of my, quick stories similar to what Angie experienced. So I'm been passing this, Episcopal Church, for years, and, was right around the corner from where we lived.

00;14;45;02 - 00;15;09;15
Rev. Will Mebane
And, and I thought, you know, I want to start going back to church. So I'm going to I'm going to go in one Sunday. And so showed up and it was all white. And, you know, that by itself didn't deter me because like, probably Robin and you and you as black people, we're constantly in situations where we're the only person of color in the room.

00;15;09;17 - 00;15;37;09
Rev. Will Mebane
And they were they were okay and receiving me. And then I decided, well, next week I'll come back and I'll bring the family with me. Well, long and short of it is, we ended up joining the church and I got involved, which is what happens with me. I get involved and take leadership roles, and next thing I know, I'm the warden of the of the, of the parish, which is like the chair of the board.

00;15;37;11 - 00;16;03;01
Rev. Will Mebane
And the priest sat me down one day and he said, you don't know the history of this parish, do you? And I thought, geez, I don't know what he said. This parish was started by a group of white folks who wanted to get away from black folks who are integrating the parish. This is in New Haven, Connecticut. They were integrating, and so they wanted to continue to be able to worship, worship with an all white congregation.

00;16;03;04 - 00;16;26;13
Rev. Will Mebane
So they moved out here to the suburbs and here you show up 10 to 15 years later, and now you were involved, and you are now chair of the chair of the, the vestry warden. And, and I'm very involved. That's the way you know, God works in very mysterious ways, right? So, how does it perpetuate it in so many ways?

00;16;26;13 - 00;17;08;05
Rev. Will Mebane
I mean, we've heard the references to scripture. Robin, I really loved your show that you did about the black church a few, a few months ago, maybe on a month or so ago, when you touched on a lot of these, these issues and, you know, Skip gates did his piece on PBS about the history of the black church, and it raised up some of these same, same questions and, you know, there was a time when the the slave owners, as Angie was saying, the slave owners were trying to Christianize the blacks, but they thought, wait a minute with the slaves and the Africans who were slaves.

00;17;08;08 - 00;17;36;20
Rev. Will Mebane
But they couldn't really teach them Christianity because it would speak to just the opposite of what they were living. And so, they actually to perpetuate the racism, they actually tore out certain pages of the Bible to keep the slaves who, were beginning to learn to read from being able, being exposed to those verses in the Bible.

00;17;36;23 - 00;18;16;09
Rev. Will Mebane
So, I mean, that's a pretty direct perpetuation of the racism, right? That, that was in, that's in, in religion and. You know, all the iconography, the icons that we have, the images of Jesus, and this beautiful blond, blue eyed Jesus, is so far from the truth. And so, through art and and iconography, racism has been perpetuated.

00;18;16;11 - 00;18;51;06
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, Jesus was a, you know, first century Palestinian Jew. Look, nothing like a European. But most people in, in our country aren't even, aren't even aware of that. And then, you know, Elias, Rabbi Elias talked about the story of Noah and, Noah's son Ham, and how ham somehow got to be identified with the people of color that he represented, people of color.

00;18;51;06 - 00;19;23;07
Rev. Will Mebane
And so, he was made a scapegoat. And, and so that, again, it's just another way that it has been, been perpetuated. So, is happens all the time. I like what Robin said about, you know, preachers have to, you know, not to preach social justice. As a Christian, I only know one gospel, and that's a social gospel, the social gospel of Jesus.

00;19;23;10 - 00;20;00;20
Rev. Will Mebane
And, that's very radical. And it's all about social justice. But here I am in Falmouth, Massachusetts. Right. And I'm the rector of an predominantly white I mean, I can count on, I think, one hand and the number of people of color that we have, there's members of the parish, and, and the, you know, whatever it is, 170 year history of, of the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts.

00;20;00;23 - 00;20;35;04
Rev. Will Mebane
I am only the eighth black person to lead a congregation that is predominantly white. So, I mean, I think it's actually two a 36 year that the Episcopal Church in Massachusetts has been around for 236 years. And so in 236 years, there's only been one person that looks like me that, was given the privilege and call to, serve as the spiritual leader of a predominantly white congregation.

00;20;35;04 - 00;21;14;26
Rev. Will Mebane
So the racism gets perpetuated through not calling, priest rectors, priest in charge of decorators, in episcopal lingo, to, to serve in, in parishes and it's so hard for a black person to even get into the ordination process and to make it through the ordination process because of the racism that, exist within the Episcopal Church and the ordination processes and, and all the good people.

00;21;14;26 - 00;21;36;21
Rev. Will Mebane
And I mean that genuinely all the good people who are involved in doing that work, none of them they most of them would challenge me and say, oh, there's no racism in our What a Nation project. What are you talking about? Absolutely not. There's no racism, but it is steeped in racism, and it manifests itself in all kinds of different ways, which I'm happy to talk about later.

00;21;36;21 - 00;21;44;09
Rev. Will Mebane
But, yeah. So those are my initial, my initial thoughts.

00;21;44;11 - 00;21;51;18
Onjale Scott Price
Well, great thoughts as always. I'm sure we could have had you go on for a while with those thoughts. Yeah.

00;21;51;20 - 00;21;52;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Sure. How much time you got?

00;21;52;24 - 00;21;53;11
Rev. Will Mebane
I got to talk.

00;21;53;11 - 00;21;54;09
Rev. Will Mebane
About this, you know.

00;21;54;14 - 00;21;54;23
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah.

00;21;54;29 - 00;22;12;09
Onjale Scott Price
Well, so I've been in Falmouth. Yeah. At least part time for about ten years now. And I have been to Saint Barnabas in the past, and then I. It must have been 2019. My friend George George Lyles was like, oh, you should come here, Reverend. Well, I was like, yeah, okay. And then he's like, yeah, he's black.

00;22;12;09 - 00;22;13;06
Onjale Scott Price
I said, oh.

00;22;13;06 - 00;22;15;11
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, I'm I'm.

00;22;15;14 - 00;22;33;23
Onjale Scott Price
And then, you know, I went to one of your sermons and honestly, I don't remember, what specifically the sermon was about, but the social justice aspect, that was part of your sermon. I vividly remember you asking the congregation, I'm not going to act. This is what you said. I'm not going to ask for a shorthand because I don't want to embarrass anyone.

00;22;33;26 - 00;22;44;00
Onjale Scott Price
But how many of the white people in this congregation have had a person of color over to their house for dinner? And I looked at George and I said, is he always like this?

00;22;44;02 - 00;22;45;08
Onjale Scott Price
I think more often.

00;22;45;10 - 00;23;10;02
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. And I was like, this, this is what I think the church needs to be about. Because like Robin said, the black church is always about social justice, is, you know, that's where MLK talked about social justice and where the movements get started. But it's not just the black people who need to hear about the social justice. We're not the ones who created these systems of oppression, this systemic racism, white supremacy.

00;23;10;05 - 00;23;27;06
Onjale Scott Price
The people who need to hear that are the ones in the white church, the ones who proclaim that they want to be Christlike and they want to do, what's right in the eyes, in the eyes of Christ. And so, I, I would challenge white congregations to be more like Reverend Will in that way and probably other ways.

00;23;27;06 - 00;23;39;13
Onjale Scott Price
But in that way of particular of focusing on, social justice. And one thing that Reverend Nell said in her clip was MLK said Sunday is the most segregated.

00;23;39;13 - 00;23;39;27
Onjale Scott Price
Time.

00;23;40;04 - 00;23;53;06
Onjale Scott Price
In the United States, and I don't think that was by accident. That seems not seems sure that was by by design. And I will put it up to anybody who wants to to comment on that. Natalie.

00;23;53;08 - 00;24;13;06
Robin Joyce Miller
Oh, no. Robyn, you go first, please. Oh, no. No. Okay, well, one of the things that. Thank you, but one of the things that I when I heard was, you know, I think that even living in Cape Cod, it's such a closed in place that Reverend Nel said, when you walk into a Protestant church, most black people in this country a Protestant.

00;24;13;08 - 00;24;38;15
Robin Joyce Miller
So I was saying, what all the black people I know accept. I know some Catholics and I know some people, but majority are Protestant. So if you go into a Protestant Cape Cod church, yes, you will see mostly white people. But if you go across the country, most black churches are Protestant churches. So that was the first thing that that I was thinking about.

00;24;38;15 - 00;25;10;22
Robin Joyce Miller
And then I forgot what I'm finding this difficult because there are so many issues to talk about that it's hard for me to figure out which one should I talk about? Which one? Because we could go on. And the more you researched, the more your experiences are, the more vast. Because like, for example, in my church in, in, West Parish, they the president of the United Church of Christ came up with a document called the White Privilege Document.

00;25;10;27 - 00;25;31;26
Robin Joyce Miller
And and had all the white churches look at that and deal with that. And that was dealt with in the church. And there were problems in West Parish. It is, as the minister says, it's a red and a blue church. It's a purple church. They call that the purple church because it's red and blue politically. And so you had people who voted for Trump.

00;25;32;00 - 00;25;48;24
Robin Joyce Miller
You had people vote for Hillary, and some of them didn't want to sit next to each other. And these are all white people. But they were angry and there was a discussion about racism. And the minister, Reverend Reed, had to say, can we agree that everyone who voted for Trump wasn't a racist? And people had a hard time?

00;25;48;28 - 00;26;09;08
Robin Joyce Miller
So these racial discussions, even in that white church with a back and forth. So I'm seeing different things. It's interesting that these things are coming up. But, there's so much to talk about. I'll just step back now because I'll just go on and on. That's one.

00;26;09;10 - 00;26;11;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Natalie, what did you have then then, data?

00;26;11;11 - 00;26;47;04
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Well, I also noticed, but yeah. Robyn, I was thinking that, you know, the same thing. You know, I always thought that when you said that, I was thinking when you, Angela, when you were. When you were talking, I was thinking about this book that I had read by Walter Brueggemann. But. And he was a Christian scholar, and he wrote a book on the Psalms, and he said, if you look at the Psalms, which is a part of, Hebrew scripture that the Christian church also draws from, that there's different themes, that there are some, some psalms where, where people are saying, you know, come on, God, we need you to turn

00;26;47;04 - 00;27;09;00
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
this government upside down and rescue your people. You've really left us here. And then there are other songs that say, oh God, everything is so good, and we praise you and we want, you know, we want you to keep everything calm, keep it all calm, and that you can actually look historically and at the Psalms, when the folks are, suffering, struggling.

00;27;09;00 - 00;27;29;24
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Are these upheaval prophetic? Turn it around songs. And when people, when the kings are in power, they have people, right. These like keep it all calm God songs. Right. And so there are these two completely different orientations to God. And I feel that way about the white church. And obviously I'm not black, so I don't have a lived experience of the black church.

00;27;29;26 - 00;27;51;14
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
But from what I've read and watched and the friendships I have, the black church is really about finding a God that's going to help tear it down, you know, and turn it over and break down oppression. And the white church is like, let's all just stay calm here, okay? And trust God and everything. Jesus, come home, the storm, everything's going to be okay.

00;27;51;14 - 00;28;12;01
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Right? So in some ways, we're worshiping to God. Yes. And that's that's the real, you know, and look, we got to be honest, if we read that we in most of our books, different scripture text, I, you know, the one I'm verse ten, I don't think it would keep it calm. God. Right. I mean, we got it.

00;28;12;01 - 00;28;42;28
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
We got to be honest about that. And so for me, as a someone who's white, but I had what's helped me come to God in a more full way is to realize it's not just about preaching social justice for people out there, you know, and for people who are not me. But it's actually that, me too. I'm not living my most full life when I'm walking around, act like trying to keep it all calm and act it all together and keep my position of power and and hurting other people.

00;28;43;00 - 00;29;06;23
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And that this system of racism and white supremacy and, heteronormativity, you know, all the different forms of oppression are so baked into me that the only way that I can undo myself is to come to God like the God is my deep source. It is the only hope I have for turning it around, right? And for for being willing to let go and to try again.

00;29;06;25 - 00;29;34;04
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And I wonder that about the white church. I wonder that, like, how do we not just say, oh, you know, we're so bad, which, you know, is something we need to come to grips with? I'm not saying we can't acknowledge the pain we've caused, but how do we create this? Like deep hunger for a different way of being that will actually liberate us all to some, you know, to some extent not acknowledge not saying that people who are white have been a hospital get us out of this system that's really killing all of us.

00;29;34;06 - 00;29;53;16
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And the only way we can do that is by turning to God. And to me, that helps us start to find this more aligned understanding of what God's about, which is changing at all. You know, I think Octavia Butler says that the only thing that's constant is change, right? And God is changing, always inviting us to change more and more.

00;29;53;19 - 00;30;05;14
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
So, yeah, that's that's what I was thinking about when, when you were talking about how we get the white church talking about social justice, not just about for other people, but really because it's the only way to save our lives to.

00;30;05;16 - 00;30;20;06
Onjale Scott Price
Right? It's we have to lead. Leaders of the church have to lead. So in order to be able to lead your people, your congregation, you also have to be doing the work and willing to do the work. David, do you have some some thoughts.

00;30;20;09 - 00;30;48;11
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Or there's so many directions to go with this? Yeah. After what Natalie said, I'm changing what I was going to say. Go on. You reminded one of your on him of what a good friend of mine said. The Reverend George Oliver, who's a Baptist minister, and he said to me, he said, when I'm in a, he's sometimes I feel that you white people aren't playing the same God I am that when he would be in majority white churches, he said, I don't even sometimes recognize the same God or the same Jesus.

00;30;48;11 - 00;31;07;26
Rev. David Kohlmeier
And you reminded me of that, which is a very provocative statement, I think, of, but I want to talk about this guilt piece because you mentioned about feeling guilty, and that was a reminder to me of how often I think my experience being a white minister in majority white spaces where you hit this guilt bar. Right.

00;31;07;26 - 00;31;31;14
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Like, I don't want to feel guilty. I don't want to feel bad. And I frequently tell my people, if we're talking about race and you're feeling guilty, notice that, and then let's push through that, because that's a distraction. Because this isn't about you feeling guilty about you. I mean, maybe you do. Maybe you got some stuff to repent of, but I'm talking about something bigger than just you and whether or not you're a good person, I'm talking about something much bigger than.

00;31;31;16 - 00;31;51;07
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Is Donald Trump a racist? I've always thought that question was ultimately a distraction. C.S. Lewis once said, if you're guilty more than five minutes, it's an erotic, meaning like you feel guilty in order to be motivated to make a change. That's what repentance means. And I'm in a tradition that's very, very socially progressive, very, very socially liberal.

00;31;51;10 - 00;32;14;25
Rev. David Kohlmeier
I'm in a coronation. We're having a pride flag. And a trans flag is not controversial. Right. But talking about repentance is very controversial. Like, let's talking about like things we've done wrong is really controversial. And I do think what I think we need to do is be a little more comfortable talking about repenting again, like there's things we got to turn around on.

00;32;14;27 - 00;32;36;27
Rev. David Kohlmeier
And not being afraid of that. I wanted to touch too on, so, so white leaders need to lead. And I think we also need to be better at following. So in my tradition, one of the big conversations we're having as a majority white tradition is how, black, Hispanic, indigenous Unitarian Universalists have been saying for decades.

00;32;36;27 - 00;32;57;14
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Here's the changes you can make for us to feel like this is more our home. So there's also a sense in which sometimes, as white leaders need to listen to those voices of color in our own traditions, telling us what to do differently rather than thinking we have to, like, invent the wheel. So sometimes I feel I have to teach people how to follow and learn how to follow my self in a different way to.

00;32;57;17 - 00;33;04;01
Rev. David Kohlmeier
And that's true of sexism, homophobia, transphobia, the whole the whole spiel.

00;33;04;04 - 00;33;16;18
Robin Joyce Miller
Wow. Yeah, yeah. Can I just, say. But yeah, when you were talking about your, your the experiences of your grandmother or who was that in your family?

00;33;16;18 - 00;33;17;18
Onjale Scott Price
My aunt in Texas.

00;33;17;18 - 00;33;37;09
Robin Joyce Miller
Not your aunt. Okay. Well, the first thing that came to my mind is, and I think people should know that, that Zion Union Heritage Museum is where I work and I'm connected. That was originally a church that became a church because there were black people in the Baptist church in Hyannis, and they were told the exact same thing.

00;33;37;12 - 00;34;01;18
Robin Joyce Miller
You would be more comfortable somewhere else. So Charles Drew, who was a white member of the church, he went to see one of the black women who was not wasn't coming back anymore. And he asked her why, and she told her that's told that same story. We were told that we would be more comfortable somewhere else. So he helped to build, the Zion Union, Mission Church on North Avenue in Hyannis.

00;34;01;20 - 00;34;25;17
Robin Joyce Miller
That is how that place got started, because whites did not want the servants and black people who were there to be participating in the church. So I've heard the story, and it's interesting that right there in Hyannis, that's why that museum started. Now the church has moved to Christmas at its lane, and it's now a museum where the original church was.

00;34;25;21 - 00;34;30;06
Robin Joyce Miller
But that's a story for Hyannis as well. Yeah.

00;34;30;08 - 00;34;33;26
Onjale Scott Price
So I, I struggle with if I like that story or not.

00;34;33;27 - 00;34;34;18
Robin Joyce Miller
Yeah. Yeah.

00;34;34;23 - 00;34;59;04
Onjale Scott Price
As well I do believe in black people and people of color having their own spaces and in certain instances, like having a place that they can go and be. And we kind of talked about this on the last episode, and I also feel like that the white congregation should have been challenged. They should have learned to accept the people of color, the black people who wanted to join their congregation, you know.

00;34;59;04 - 00;35;04;12
Onjale Scott Price
And why is it that the people who were being excluded had to be the one to find a new church or to build?

00;35;04;13 - 00;35;10;27
Robin Joyce Miller
And this is 1909, so, you know, yeah, I'm.

00;35;10;29 - 00;35;12;23
Onjale Scott Price
Like in context, no, I, I.

00;35;12;23 - 00;35;13;26
Robin Joyce Miller
Yeah, I yeah.

00;35;13;28 - 00;35;24;07
Onjale Scott Price
You know, it's just something I still think of it just perpetuates that black people are the other you, you've got to go do your own thing. You have to figure it out for yourself.

00;35;24;12 - 00;35;46;09
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Yes, yes, it seems like that. What? This is where you would be more uncomfortable. Okay, let's be honest. What people are saying. We would be more more comfortable. Would be more comfortable if you weren't here. I think the problem is, you know, it's this is tricky because obviously history is the foundation for what has shaped us. But we do this stuff still today.

00;35;46;17 - 00;36;07;13
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
You know, I mean, I think I think that's you know, that's the truth. And so we have to it's still happening. You know, it would be one thing if that story was the past and it was just the past. But I have a very good friend. Well, she's a good friend. She also used to be a parishioner, member of a church where I was serving.

00;36;07;15 - 00;36;27;03
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And they were the only black family in the church. And what she constantly said to me is that if I actually showed up here as myself, I wouldn't be welcome. You know, like, if I if I actually showed up here as myself, I wouldn't be welcome. Right. And so I think and this is, this is like I'll just be honest and expressing my own limitations.

00;36;27;03 - 00;36;50;29
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And this right is, is for I think as white people, we only know the world as we've known it. And so how do we, kind of like, open ourselves up or undo our attachments to the way that we've known the world so that people can really show up as themselves, right? Because, I mean, and again, like, I feel this is where, David was talking about having to listen.

00;36;50;29 - 00;37;11;13
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
This is where I feel like we can't leave. You know, white people aren't going to create churches that are actually multi-racial and multi, you know, multiracial churches percent race that it is going to have to be a level black people or people of color, indigenous people, because they're the only that like that is the option for creating a space for all people, you know.

00;37;11;13 - 00;37;23;07
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Because anytime that we create the space and I said this earlier, but it starts with our assumptions of what it means for us to feel comfortable, which is usually other people, not to feel right. And you know.

00;37;23;07 - 00;37;24;22
Onjale Scott Price
That's a that's yeah, that's.

00;37;24;22 - 00;37;31;03
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Really, limiting. That's just really limiting. Reverend.

00;37;31;03 - 00;37;33;28
Onjale Scott Price
Well, I see you moving. Yeah.

00;37;34;00 - 00;37;38;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I saw Robin was going to say something. Now I'll defer to my to my sister.

00;37;38;20 - 00;38;25;17
Robin Joyce Miller
Oh. Thank you. I was just thinking. See, the problem is all white, black people don't want to be in a white church in a mixed city. There's a benefit to the black church that people don't understand. I did the show called Black Churches Matter and I am very happy that I grew up in a black church. One of the things so in the black church, you get your culture and you get your faith that you are important, that you are, that, like, for example, I went to Africa because of my black church, the culture, my reverend, and it wasn't always like this, but the Rev, the one who just retired, he wore African clothing.

00;38;25;22 - 00;38;52;02
Robin Joyce Miller
He inspired the African diaspora. So in the white church, I would not have gotten that. Also, black people got a chance to have high positions. All of the black singers they learned in the black church, they got their opportunities in the black church. This also goes also into African, I mean, black colleges, you know, historically black.

00;38;52;08 - 00;39;14;14
Robin Joyce Miller
They got encouraged and inspired in ways that they would not get if they went to Harvard. When, when when things got integrated. Sometimes it's not always the best because the what you get in all black environment is you get the love, you get the care, you get people lifting you up in a way that you're not going to get in the world.

00;39;14;19 - 00;39;34;01
Robin Joyce Miller
So I'm very glad that I am now in the white church and I can tell what I learned. But I'm so glad. But I grew up in my black church, so there is where white people are saying, oh well, it's nice, you will come to our church and we should be all together. Yes and no. You know, it is.

00;39;34;05 - 00;39;39;20
Robin Joyce Miller
There is a benefit to the black church. And I just needed to say that.

00;39;39;22 - 00;39;51;10
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, I, I absolutely hear you. And I wish I had grown up in a black church because my friends and hearing from you as well, people who have grown up in the black church, that is where they learn to love themselves. So they.

00;39;51;10 - 00;39;54;09
Onjale Scott Price
Learn so that they're nurtured where they.

00;39;54;09 - 00;40;15;27
Onjale Scott Price
Were nurtured. Exactly. Yeah. And and I and this is why, you know, we we I don't represent all black people. You don't represent all black people because that we have our own experiences. And I never experienced that. And I wish I had it. I didn't go to an HBCU, but I worked at one, and having worked at one for several years, I thought, this is amazing.

00;40;15;29 - 00;40;16;10
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah.

00;40;16;13 - 00;40;17;14
Onjale Scott Price
Of life and.

00;40;17;14 - 00;40;46;18
Onjale Scott Price
It and it could have been in the black church if I, you know, not saying I should have grown up that way, but that's an experience that I, that I could have had, growing up in the black church and I do I'm looking forward to watching your show now about the black church and, and the PBS episode about the, the black church, because I do I do understand on a just basic understanding level of how important it is, but I'm looking forward to being able to connect in a way that that I personally haven't been able to, because I've not been a part of one.

00;40;46;20 - 00;40;50;26
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Okay. Sorry. I'm actually going to pass it back to Reverend.

00;40;50;29 - 00;41;24;27
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, now I have other things I want to say, but, so here's what what I'd like to do. I want to comment on on some of this, conversation we're having now. About black church, white church and and what have you. But I think we ought to move to our second question and, hear what the, and what the people on the street have to say in responding to, the other question we posed to them, which was, so what is the role of churches?

00;41;24;27 - 00;41;56;09
Rev. Will Mebane
What's the role of religious institutions in addressing racism? So we've we've made it clear that there is racism in religion and in religious institutions. So, what do they we need to do about it? So let's take a listen to what the people on the street had to say. And we'll be back to, join our panel to hear what they have to say.

00;41;56;11 - 00;42;24;29
Rabbi Elias Lieberman
And I go back to what is commonly understood as the origin of the word religion and its Latin roots. And while it's not definitive, most of us are comfortable with the theory that etymological it means to bind together. And, I really see that as the task. I mean, that's the function of religious religion to bring people together with common understandings of what our purpose is, how we achieve that purpose.

00;42;25;01 - 00;42;48;00
Rabbi Elias Lieberman
And, I think, by extension, how we bind together disparate parts of a community, people who don't look like us, people who don't talk like us, people who may have very different backgrounds that they bring to their shared, faith communities. I think that's really the challenge. I think some of it depends on what we teach and how we teach it.

00;42;48;03 - 00;43;04;12
Rabbi Elias Lieberman
I think that certainly as a as a clergy person, I have a an enduring obligation to try to educate my community about things they may be unaware of, about prejudices they may hold, and may not even be fully conscious of.

00;43;04;15 - 00;43;41;02
Rev. Nell Fields
And I believe it's our it's our moral and ethical and theological, responsibility to to look at white privilege and to look at ways that our society and culture have, you know, perpetuated this myth that the white people, white men are in charge and to, to see the, the, the discrimination that has been going on for, for years, that's the work of the church.

00;43;41;04 - 00;43;46;20
Rev. Nell Fields
You know, God, we we believe that God, created everybody

00;43;46;22 - 00;44;05;28
Carrie Fradkin
read the Bible. If you are the Ten Commandments, if you are really, truly a religious person in that you understand the text, you would never, ever, condone slavery or any kind of racism. We were all created in the eyes of God or in the image of God.

00;44;05;28 - 00;44;37;00
Carrie Fradkin
And so and, we were all created equal. And so it's just pure hypocrisy to suggest otherwise. So I think that the church needs to go back to its roots, examine the, the, hypocrisy in their theology and educate their congregation on what happened and why it's wrong and how it can change. As it's going to take a long time.

00;44;37;00 - 00;44;57;21
Carrie Fradkin
But that's that's what needs to be done. And the first thing I was by doing is changing all the images of the disciples and Jesus into ones that portray what they really probably look like, which is not white with blond hair and.

00;44;57;23 - 00;45;43;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Well welcome back. That was some, good food for thought and good food. For continuation of the conversation with our panelists, here, the Reverend David Cole Meyer, the Reverend Natalie Thomas, and my sister, Robyn Joyce Miller, and still with our lovely co-host, Miss Angela Scott Price. So before we went on break and we're going to get to the questions, but, for when I break, we were talking about, being brought up in a black church, what that's like for a black person versus going to a white shirt and what that experience can be like.

00;45;43;10 - 00;46;13;12
Rev. Will Mebane
So I was I was raised in two black churches. My mother was Amish. Zion, African Methodist Episcopal Zion. And that's where I kind of cut my teeth, if you will, on, my spirituality. And then my father was raised in a, was in a member of a Baptist church. So, yeah, that that background, that culture, it's something that is still near and dear to me today.

00;46;13;12 - 00;46;39;23
Rev. Will Mebane
And if people ever listen to me, priest, they'll hear a little bit of that trying to create their right Reverend Natalie, every once in a while that, that, that heritage is still there. But I want to share with you a little book that I have on my bookshelf. It's, it's called What's a Black Man Doing in the Episcopal Church?

00;46;39;25 - 00;47;11;06
Rev. Will Mebane
What's a black man doing in the Episcopal Church? And was written by a bishop, a black bishop who was the bishop in southern Ohio, the Right Reverend Herb Thompson. And I kept this. Someone gave this to me years, years, decades ago. Because there's a question I get. People say to me, Will, you're black. And they they know some of my convictions.

00;47;11;06 - 00;47;38;08
Rev. Will Mebane
And is it why are you in the Episcopal Church, a white church? And I still don't have a very good answer to that. Except this is where God has placed me, and I think I'm in the gospel church to do some work, to do some specific work. Now there are some black Episcopal, parishes, congregations that are predominantly black.

00;47;38;11 - 00;47;59;14
Rev. Will Mebane
And I was just talking to to my spouse the other night and was saying, well, you know, when my time here at Saint Barnabas is over and some people might want that to be sooner than later, but that's another discussion. But when my when my time here at Saint Barnabas is over, you know where my I want to go next.

00;47;59;16 - 00;48;40;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, it's never about what I want is always about what God wants. But my thinking is, you know, I might I might want to go to an all black Episcopal church. I might want to go back to those roots and have that cultural experience that I had as a child and a teenager growing up in the all black churches of my of my parents, because there's just something there Robin talked about, had the how the congregation just lifts you up and embraces you and, affirms you, affirmed you in a way when that that affirmation can often be lacking in, predominantly white congregations.

00;48;40;02 - 00;49;03;12
Rev. Will Mebane
All right. So you heard what the, people on the street, had to say. Carrie, listen, now, about what's the role of religious institutions in addressing racism? So let me ask the panelists, open up to whoever would like to, give a response. Let's let's hear what's on your hearts.

00;49;04;00 - 00;49;05;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Go ahead. David. Yes, you can unmute. Thanks.

00;49;05;29 - 00;49;24;16
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Right. So, so a couple of things came to mind. I mentioned earlier, like, avoiding the platitudes, like there's a lot of feel good platitudes that, that don't actually, I think, really get at the root of this thing. So I'm remembering when I was starting seminary hearing, hearing James Cone of blessed memory.

00;49;24;18 - 00;49;25;13
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh,

00;49;25;16 - 00;49;46;25
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Ask the question. He was addressing a mostly, group of mostly white seminarians. And he said, well, how many black thinkers are in your head? Like, how many books have you read? And not necessarily books about racism, but how many black authors are in your head shaping your theology, shaping your view of the world? And I think that's a huge thing, is if you're a white person in a majority white community, who are the black authors you've read?

00;49;46;25 - 00;50;07;21
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Who are the Asian American authors you've read? Who are the black women you've read? Who are the queer indigenous people you've read like? Pay attention to who's in your head shaping your attitude. That's a huge thing. And, whenever the diversity subject comes up, because this came up about, plantations were diverse. I think diversity is not the best goal.

00;50;07;24 - 00;50;29;16
Rev. David Kohlmeier
I think justice needs to be the goal, and the goal needs to be not how do I get more people of a certain demographic in my building? But are we a congregation that's structured in such a way that when a marginalized or endangered person comes in, they feel included? And that's, that includes gay people, trans people, women, gender, non-binary people, black people, Asian people.

00;50;29;23 - 00;50;54;28
Rev. David Kohlmeier
So proactive. Lee, building a system that's that's liberatory and celebrated. I'm remembering a colleague of mine who's a black union minister when Trayvon Martin died and he said, what I really wanted to hear that white preacher say in his majority white congregation, I wanted him to say of Trayvon, that's my son. That's my brother. Like, seeing that that that's that's not a thing out there feeling that solidarity.

00;50;55;01 - 00;51;14;03
Rev. David Kohlmeier
So I think, there's a lot in there. I have too much to say, but, but, but letting those letting thinkers that are different from you shape your perception and then looking at your own institution and saying, how do I build something that's inclusive of everybody, not just diverse, but just that's the kingdom of God in Christian tradition.

00;51;14;06 - 00;51;47;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Right? Oh, I love that. Love that. Beautifully said. Absolutely. So here's a here's a quick example again of how racism is perpetuated. I know we're supposed to be talking about how to get rid of it, but you mentioned Trayvon Martin. So when Trayvon was killed, lynched, I was up to preach that Sunday and, I went out and I spent four hours driving all over trying to find a white hoodie and, went to like, ten, 15 stores, couldn't find a white hoodie anywhere.

00;51;47;19 - 00;52;17;24
Rev. Will Mebane
But I found one. And that's what I preached in on Sunday. If you remember, Trayvon Martin had the hoodie on, and, that was received well by most folks, but not by everybody. Not by everyone. Right. So all the other thoughts in reaction to the question, what's the role of religious institutions? What are we supposed to be doing those institutions to address racism?

00;52;17;26 - 00;52;40;03
Robin Joyce Miller
Well, I would like to just say I was asked, but it's interesting, I, I find it fascinating that I can do more in Cape Cod. I'm not needed in my black church to do this. To do this work, it helps to be in a white environment because the black people that's not there issue to to handle. We all talk about the same thing.

00;52;40;09 - 00;53;05;26
Robin Joyce Miller
But when I'm in the white church, it's different. I was asked to write a for a journal article called Social Justice Arising Through Ministry. So I'm thinking to myself, what? That's what I that's my church. That's all we do. What do you mean? Social justice arising through preaching and minister worship that was rising through worship on it. That's what I've always done and that's what is.

00;53;06;02 - 00;53;28;19
Robin Joyce Miller
So I had to do a little research. So I looked up social justice in ministry and what is and I kind of I found out, okay, this is a new thing, that white churches are now engaging in social justice. And it says some churches are doing it, but many white people are leaving their church because of social justice, preaching that.

00;53;28;19 - 00;53;54;02
Robin Joyce Miller
What is this whole theme of social justice preaching? So yes, it is something that should be done. However, many whites have picked up and left their church if they're doing it now at our church here in West Parish, the attitude is about social justice, and Reed has preached some sermons that I called him up and said, are you sure you're going to have a passion when you're finished with this?

00;53;54;05 - 00;54;13;04
Robin Joyce Miller
You know. So he laughed and said, because, see, at first he was trying that. He goes, Robin, you know, it's difficult to preach in a purple church. It's easier. I, I wish that I had I'm jealous of some of my, my colleagues who preach in a blue church or a black church. A minister can get up and do social justice and everybody's.

00;54;13;04 - 00;54;15;00
Robin Joyce Miller
Amen. Amen. You know.

00;54;15;00 - 00;54;15;18
Robin Joyce Miller
This is what.

00;54;15;18 - 00;54;32;12
Robin Joyce Miller
We talk about in a white church. You're going to get kind of like some people. What? This is not why I came to church. That's what I read. Things like I didn't come to church to hear about race. That's not my issue. That's not what I'm about. That's what I'm not. I don't need to hear this. I just want to hear about God, okay?

00;54;32;12 - 00;54;49;02
Robin Joyce Miller
I don't want to hear about what I'm supposed to do with other people. And quite frankly, in the white shirts. What made me laugh the first time I was I got in the pulpit. I've never been in my black church. Did not put me in a pulpit. Okay, I go to the white church and they're like, hey, get in the pulpit we want.

00;54;49;03 - 00;55;12;00
Robin Joyce Miller
Okay, so the first song I have them sing is, I need You to survive. And I said, hold hands, I need to we need we, you know, I won't hurt you with words from my mouth. Someone said to me, wow, we never sang about caring about each other before. This is one people. I said, well, in the black church, we hold hands.

00;55;12;03 - 00;55;35;05
Robin Joyce Miller
We swing, we sway, we move and we talk to each other like, you know, we only talk to God. We don't talk. We don't talk about how I love you. We talk about how we love God. So it's like I felt this sense, it's a this way. It's not a this way thing. So that's just what I got at that at our church, you know.

00;55;35;05 - 00;55;54;19
Robin Joyce Miller
And so, I see them developing. I see good things. But then I'm there and that changes things right there because they asked me, get up there. They want me to talk, they want to hear it. And a lot of people have embraced Jim and I, and in fact, more people in that church have invited us to their home for dinner than I ever went to.

00;55;54;19 - 00;56;05;12
Robin Joyce Miller
Anybody in the my black church is okay. So on the Cape, I have been at at least 5 or 6 people's homes for dinner and they've come to our house. So there's my story.

00;56;05;14 - 00;56;09;01
Rev. Will Mebane
You're going to get a lot of invitations from your black church now you know that, right?

00;56;09;04 - 00;56;12;26
Robin Joyce Miller
Yeah, right.

00;56;12;29 - 00;56;15;20
Rev. David Kohlmeier
I that's I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That song.

00;56;15;22 - 00;56;18;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, man.

00;56;18;17 - 00;56;20;00
Robin Joyce Miller
I need you to survive.

00;56;20;05 - 00;56;22;19
Rev. Will Mebane
I need you, you need me.

00;56;22;21 - 00;56;26;01
Robin Joyce Miller
We all need God. That's my God.

00;56;26;01 - 00;56;26;20
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah.

00;56;26;22 - 00;56;27;28
Robin Joyce Miller
That's right.

00;56;28;00 - 00;56;40;07
Rev. Will Mebane
I introduce that into a, cathedral, the Episcopal cathedral where I was serving, and people almost freaked out. But, yeah, you know, we got to, They got it there. You got it?

00;56;40;07 - 00;56;41;09
Robin Joyce Miller
Yeah. Right.

00;56;41;09 - 00;56;44;11
Rev. Will Mebane
And tell me what's on your heart, that's why. Yeah.

00;56;44;14 - 00;57;09;12
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
I was, you know, that that actually connects what I was going to say. But, when David was saying, I don't know if you've said the person's name, but after Trayvon Martin was murdered, I wanted someone to say, that's my son, you know? And I think that to me, that's such an example of I mean, this is really not to make white people to be at the people who've had it the worst, but it's like inability to connect to that.

00;57;09;12 - 00;57;29;14
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
We have the, you know, that we're going on here where like this inability to step into vulnerability with folks. And to me, that's one place that the church, if we're working primarily in white churches, it needs to tap into that as how do we help white people actually acknowledge, not just from a moral we did something wrong place, but from a vulnerable sadness.

00;57;29;17 - 00;57;53;27
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Like, I can get into the heart work of where we are. I just was on the phone the other day with a woman who's trying to do some anti-racism work within her, her congregation, and she said, well, we read this book, we read that book and read this book. And I said, but has anyone in the, group actually just said, you know, from me, this is my experience, and this is where I have like, either where I have failed, where I have held stock or I have, you know, kind of just acknowledging from my own space.

00;57;53;27 - 00;58;15;09
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And she said, you know, people don't really want to be that vulnerable. It's like, if you can't be vulnerable going to get through this, you know, where are we going to? Like, we're not going to address racism. With all of us feeling like we're on cloud nine here. You know, this is paint. This is painful stuff. And it it takes a, you know, an opening of the heart, not just an and a light rising of all the things and learning all the things.

00;58;15;11 - 00;58;38;07
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And for me, you know, hearing Robin, what you talk about, the black church and what it meant for you, I wonder about that, about faith communities. For what? For for for. I'm speaking to to my white family out there. If it can be a place where you can feel safe enough to be sad and to be scared, and to really to cry together about this history, because it's painful, you know, it's painful.

00;58;38;07 - 00;59;00;13
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And it's not just history. Like we're still doing it today, right? And to me, if the church can be that place, it might open us up enough to be willing to change. You know, it might open us up enough to be willing to be willing to change. Yeah, I can stop. I have something else to say, but if you like something, I'm so.

00;59;00;20 - 00;59;09;06
Robin Joyce Miller
Yeah. Go ahead. I'll. I'll try and remember it. You know, there's so much we can do. Are you sure you don't want to do two sessions of this? This?

00;59;09;08 - 00;59;31;04
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Go ahead. I'm sorry. The other, you know, there's, like, all the, all of the things that, that, that, that you can also do, right? Which is what's really important to do. So this is like first off and then I said, I'm the one of the co-chairs for the Diocese Racial Justice Commission. And the foundation of the work we say is counseling and auditing.

00;59;31;06 - 00;59;53;17
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
And we really have to do that. We have to and it might not be fun or, you know, sexy, like exciting work to look through your financial records and say, how is money getting decided? Who gets money? You know, this is I. This story just like blows my mind. So I call it often. But the Diocese of Massachusetts likes to talk about how we were the first, diocese to have a black bishop.

00;59;53;24 - 01;00;13;20
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
John Burgess, not a black bishop, but a black bishop, had jurisdiction over white white churches. So kind of an authoritative white black bishop. But when he was bishop, the trustees of donated hidden money from him, so he didn't have access to it because they were afraid of what a black man would do with all of their resources.

01;00;13;23 - 01;00;38;09
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
Right. So this is what I'm talking about, about, like, line by line truth telling and auditing of how our financial practices are. What is the process for getting into the ordination, for getting into ordination? What are the requirements? Who are those requirements hard for? What kind of money are we expecting the people have thinking about how, once you know, I, I don't I'm not going to keep going because I can go ahead nauseum.

01;00;38;16 - 01;01;04;04
Rev. Natalie E. Thomas
But really like if you want to eradicate which is I don't even know if that's even possible until Jesus. Until until from from in my language when I would say till Jesus comes. But if we're going to eradicate racism, we can't just it has to be on every level, recipe cards. It has to be our understanding and it has to be applied like who you know in detail, auditing and truth telling about our system.

01;01;04;06 - 01;01;08;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Amen. Well, Robin, I you know, I come to you, David.

01;01;08;10 - 01;01;33;29
Robin Joyce Miller
Okay, okay. What I was just thinking is one of the things people ask me, how am I going to approach white people when I talk about race and racial justice? One of the things that I work on is never pointing the finger. I never am I my approach is I write poetry. I tell stories of our pain. I don't say you all did this, you did this, you didn't do this.

01;01;33;29 - 01;01;57;17
Robin Joyce Miller
I don't do that. I speak from my pain and hope that your humanity will feel my pain. And when I ask people questions and we have discussions, I make it clear that there are no wrong questions. There are no stupid questions there. If we're going to talk about this, you have to ask the questions that are on your mind.

01;01;57;21 - 01;02;21;06
Robin Joyce Miller
You have to whether you feel uncomfortable. I don't want people to feel uncomfortable when I have discussions, I say, that's okay. Ask what you were thinking so that we can get it out, and I can help either redirect your thinking or say, yeah, I understand why you feel that, you know, and we have to tell our feelings and it's, you know, because I've, I've heard horrible things.

01;02;21;09 - 01;02;47;04
Robin Joyce Miller
And my minister said, Robin, you really handled that well because some people said some real racist stuff. And I just kind of like, okay, well, let's look at this. And, and, so it's very interesting having the conversations because they're, they're difficult because people don't want to feel guilty. And that goes on. And I'll just say as quickly, in my black church, when the minister says that we will, that we have sins and we need to be forgiven.

01;02;47;08 - 01;03;14;16
Robin Joyce Miller
And during communion, the lady next to me goes, why is he going there? Say, this is in the black church. She's like, like I'm a good person. I don't need him talking about my sin know. So people don't like it. Period. When the church Jesus was all about pointing out what we're supposed to do that wasn't comfortable. And I'm telling you, even in an all black church, when the ministers saying, well, you're not doing this or this should be done, people don't want to hear it.

01;03;14;20 - 01;03;25;16
Robin Joyce Miller
They just want to hear praise God, you know, and and all the good stuff. So that can go on in, in the church. Okay. I'm quiet now.

01;03;25;19 - 01;03;30;11
Rev. Will Mebane
We have, we only have a few minutes left. But, David, I want to hear what's on your mind.

01;03;30;13 - 01;03;53;12
Rev. David Kohlmeier
I am, I'm thinking of, when I had to go to a chiropractor because I was found to have a misalignment in my back, and so I had to have this doctor, like, crack my back back into shape, and it wouldn't work because he said, you have to relax these muscles. So let me realign it. And I'm like, but I do, I eat.

01;03;53;15 - 01;04;20;08
Rev. David Kohlmeier
He said, no, you have to really trust me. I had to do some really deep meditating. We had to do some oh, you have to come back later until I could deeply and I don't know, most subconscious level, trust this man to relax my muscular defenses before he could crack my back back into shape, which hurt. And then together learn how I can hold a healthier posture and, like, keep it from getting out of alignment again.

01;04;20;08 - 01;04;44;29
Rev. David Kohlmeier
And I think that's the power of of good religion is it can be the place where I'm safe enough to relax a defense and let you hurt me for a moment to get me back in alignment with what I truly believe in, who I really want to be in the world. And I was feeling in my heart that sort of call of spirituality to like, create spaces where it's okay to be vulnerable and it's okay to hurt a little bit because I want to be aligned with something greater than myself.

01;04;44;29 - 01;04;58;27
Rev. David Kohlmeier
And that is my connection to you and to other people. So I think one of the great things religion can do, aside from all the book discussions in the world, is can we be vulnerable with each other and hold each other and not be afraid to pop a little bit, get back into alignment together?

01;04;58;29 - 01;04;59;24
Robin Joyce Miller
I like that.

01;04;59;26 - 01;05;01;08
Onjale Scott Price
I like that also.

01;05;01;11 - 01;05;35;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, yeah, we have to. We do have to have to be willing, I believe, to be uncomfortable. You know, Elias was talking about that in his clip. You know, that religion, the root of religion, the word Latin word is about binding, bringing together. Right. And he was saying that the role of religious institutions is to, go to those places that or that make people uncomfortable, that make people uneasy.

01;05;35;21 - 01;06;00;08
Rev. Will Mebane
We, you know, those of us who are, again, Christians, look at Jesus, you know, just looked at Jesus. You know, Jesus made a whole lot of people uncomfortable. We just heard a couple of weeks ago how he went into the temple and beat people with a quarter whip, whip of cords. Right. Because of their desecration of the, of the temple.

01;06;00;10 - 01;06;21;24
Rev. Will Mebane
And one of the things I, I have I've held on to is, what I heard, Reverend Will Willimon, now retired bishop in the Methodist Church, United Methodist Church today. This says the role, the goal of a of a preacher should always be to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

01;06;22;27 - 01;06;46;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Kind of. Do both. Well, we got to do both in the church and in our relationships. But we have to be able to be authentic and speak the truth from one another. Otherwise Davis use the word several times. It's all platitudes right. And we're not going to make any progress. So thank you, David, before I hand it to Andrew to close out, thank you for reminding me of James Cone.

01;06;46;21 - 01;06;57;19
Rev. Will Mebane
Because this is the time of year I. I read the cross and the lynching tree. The cross and the lynching tree. Right. Put that on your reading lists. Yes.

01;06;57;19 - 01;06;59;18
Rev. David Kohlmeier
Everybody should be reading that book.

01;06;59;20 - 01;07;02;03
Rev. Will Mebane
And finishing tree. Yeah.

01;07;02;05 - 01;07;06;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. Andy, wrap us up if you would.

01;07;06;10 - 01;07;08;07
Onjale Scott Price
I don't really want to, but I know that.

01;07;08;07 - 01;07;09;17
Onjale Scott Price
I know you know that.

01;07;09;17 - 01;07;40;13
Onjale Scott Price
I think this is, been an incredibly interesting, lively, thought provoking conversation. And I thank you all, Robin, for being here. Rev. Natalie. Rev David, my one of my favorite people. Rev Will, it's been an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you. I appreciate all of your perspectives and your thoughts. Special thank you to Deb at FCTV and Alan at FCTV for making this show possible, for whipping us together and making sure that everything goes well for the show.

01;07;40;13 - 01;07;53;08
Onjale Scott Price
And so we thank you all for continuing to support this show. And who knows, maybe next episode, one of you out there will be on the street or in the studio with us. Thank you again. Take care.