00;00;09;29 - 00;00;36;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Well. Hello, folks. Reverend Will from Saint Barnabas Church here with you again for the latest episode of that conversation. Join, as always, by, my co-host, Angela Scott Price. So glad that you are with us. For what is going to be something new for us. We've never done, what we're going to do in this show.

00;00;37;01 - 00;01;23;12
Rev. Will Mebane
This is going to be part two of a conversation that we had last month, and we were thinking about what we should do this month, and we all kept coming back to we need to continue the conversation that we had last month. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to be talking about how to talk across the aisle, and we have a, panelist group of panelists who are going to return to us from being with us last month and our on the street individuals who have been kind enough to respond to two new questions from us to be part of the conversation today.

00;01;23;14 - 00;01;42;23
Rev. Will Mebane
So we're glad you're with us. And we'll be back in just a minute. As we hear from these individuals on the street.

00;01;42;25 - 00;02;27;08
Ken Armstead
I'll let let me not be disheartening. And in that, I think most Americans and most people in general are extreme, only generous. And, they are, efforts to, help one another. But, I don't know that at sort of the margins and in the tales of the distribution, whether there will not there will always be that faction, there will always be those that have not been, directed or, understanding in the sense of, walking in someone else's shoes.

00;02;27;11 - 00;02;51;20
Gina Brown
There are people who want to know more, but they may not have access, or they may feel they don't, and I can I can actually believe when people say, I don't know how or I don't know what to do. Well, simply being nice to people is a great start. However, you got to get outside of your circle. Do something to get outside of your immediate situation and find out.

00;02;51;22 - 00;02;52;04
Gina Brown
What.

00;02;52;04 - 00;02;53;18
Gina Brown
Other black people are like.

00;02;53;19 - 00;02;59;07
Ken Armstead
So I think,

00;02;59;09 - 00;03;03;12
Ken Armstead
Probably religious, institutions could play.

00;03;03;12 - 00;03;06;02
Ken Armstead
A good role.

00;03;06;04 - 00;03;43;24
Ken Armstead
In the sense that, There there needs to be more of a moral compass. I think in terms of what is absolutely considerate of your fellow citizen and how, individuals fare better when they act in a collective manner that creates opportunity and equality across, the entire population. More so than is the case now.

00;03;43;26 - 00;04;06;24
Gina Brown
But there's so many more things that can be done on a smaller level instead of automatically having to attract national attention. Not everyone's going to be famous. There was one Martin Luther King, there was one Mahatma Gandhi. You know what I mean? So you don't have to make a video or call on a rap star or a politician to do what you can do.

00;04;06;26 - 00;04;12;21
Paul Rifkin
Is it very important and that people can see that people of different.

00;04;12;23 - 00;04;15;04
Paul Rifkin
Political stripes can.

00;04;15;06 - 00;04;30;08
Paul Rifkin
Get together and perhaps diffuse the nasty rhetoric and the potential for violence? If we can just take it down a little bit by showing that these two old dudes can get together.

00;04;30;11 - 00;04;55;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, our folks on the street have given us, something to think about and talk about. So we're going to begin the conversation. And with our returning guests. As I said in the opening, this is the first time we've done a part two of a show, but we just felt like we needed to continue this, this conversation.

00;04;55;21 - 00;05;19;07
Rev. Will Mebane
And friends, I have to say, if you've been paying attention, as I'm sure you as well as our viewers have been, I think we may have started something because every place I look, people are talking about the need to have the conversation, the need to talk about this divide and bridging this divide. So, lots of folks are copying us from Falmouth, Massachusetts.

00;05;19;07 - 00;05;43;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Right? Just to refresh everyone's memory, we have with us, your Hopkins and you, all the lives, on Martha's Vineyard. He was a candidate for, state representative. He's involved in all kinds of, community activities, and, you'll we're grateful that you've joined us again. So welcome.

00;05;43;02 - 00;05;44;18
Ewell Hopkins
So happy to be here.

00;05;44;21 - 00;06;13;07
Rev. Will Mebane
Thank you. We have Doctor Donald Jackson, a clinical psychologist, and who helped us, really go deep in our last program and examining, some aspect of this whole, issue. And, so we're grateful to you, Donna, for making the time to be with us. And, Troy Clarkson is back. Who is known to many, particularly in the Falmouth area.

00;06;13;10 - 00;06;58;19
Rev. Will Mebane
He's a former a town committee member. He is, has his own consulting firm and does, strategic planning around government and, helping people to improve delivery of services. So in is the, mind behind Troy's teeth in the Falmouth enterprise. So thank you, Troy, as well, for being with us. So we just heard from our folks on the street, talking about what we can do to, learn to walk in the shoes of others and, I'll just open up and, ask whoever, feels ready to, to give us your thoughts.

00;06;58;21 - 00;07;22;22
Troy Clarkson
I'll be happy to start it. It's a thrill to be back. And thank everyone on on the panel for continuing the conversation. Literally. One of the things that struck me is I watched those videos, was a concept that, and I hear a lot about as, as someone in long term recovery and we have a phrase we call identify, don't compare.

00;07;22;24 - 00;07;56;11
Troy Clarkson
And really, that was a thread that was woven through a lot of those comments. Right? The suggestion or the plea even that we take time to understand others, even those of very divergent political views. I, I've actually interviewed and written about Paul Rifkin, one of the people on the street many times. And recently, actually, I hosted a meeting, with Paul and a fellow by the name of Adam Lang, who was the organizer of the Trump rallies at the Bourne Bridge.

00;07;56;11 - 00;08;21;03
Troy Clarkson
And you couldn't find two people, with more divergent political views. And we can say whatever we want about their political views. But what they committed to doing is two human beings was sitting down, having a smoothie in a neutral location and finding some common ground. And they're both veterans and they both, lived in similar eras.

00;08;21;06 - 00;08;45;07
Troy Clarkson
And they were able to connect, and, and then, boy, that was a very powerful moment for me. And this was during the summertime. And so it was in the height of the the presidential campaign, where there was so much vitriol swirling all around us. And their ability, willingness to listen and identify with each other was a very, very powerful moment.

00;08;45;07 - 00;09;08;26
Troy Clarkson
And I would suggest not only for our conversation today, but for, you know, our collective wish to work towards, a more perfect nation that, that that is must be foundational, the ability to listen and identify, with, with others.

00;09;08;28 - 00;09;25;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Joy, let me just ask, before we move on to hear what you all and or Donna have to say. Have you had any follow up with with either of them? Test to see if they've maintained any connection in the communication with one another? Or did they retreat to their separate corners, so to speak?

00;09;25;17 - 00;09;53;00
Troy Clarkson
And they have, and and interestingly enough, they found, a common purpose in, a nonprofit organization that during the pandemic has provided meals to veterans. And so they both, made efforts to be engaged and involved in that organization, and have volunteered. In fact, Paul has sent me photos, of, of their, their work together.

00;09;53;00 - 00;10;15;10
Troy Clarkson
And so and, and that sort of thing. I think transcends political philosophy. And, and I by the way, I, I tried in that column that I wrote about that meeting, tried to transcend my own political views because I have very strong feelings about some of the, the things that that those rallies were promoting and, and have some deep concerns about that.

00;10;15;12 - 00;10;35;23
Troy Clarkson
But recognize that unless and until we're willing to at least try to understand why somebody thinks the way they do, we're never going to get past the divide. And so I give credit to both of those people, for being willing to, to demonstrate that that's possible.

00;10;35;25 - 00;11;13;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. We talked a little bit in the last show without relationships. We talked a lot about relationships, and that, being able to bridge this divide, to be able to, walk in the shoes of another, really begins with a willingness to, to engage in relationship with someone. And I mentioned, one of my favorite theologians, Martin Buber, and how he promotes the exactly what happened, that you were describing, Troy, you have to have a willingness to listen to to the other.

00;11;13;18 - 00;11;40;00
Rev. Will Mebane
So it begins with, with that if you if you don't have that, then you can't, can't do anything. And that the former presiding bishop in the Episcopal Church, Catherine Jefferts Schori, used to say to to clergy all the time when we were dealing with people in the in parishes where there's a lot of conflict that, a conversation begins with a willingness to be converted.

00;11;40;02 - 00;12;08;05
Rev. Will Mebane
You have to be have you have to come to the conversation being willing to be converted. And if you don't come with, that mindset, the chances of any kind of, success, is limited. But let me ask you, Donna. So, what if what have you been thinking about since we were last together? And what might have sparked in you from, what you saw from the people on the street this time?

00;12;08;07 - 00;12;35;27
Donna Jackson
Well, you know, I was struck by what can center in terms of people. He believes most people are extremely generous and I think that's a great place to begin is if you give someone the benefit of the doubt and that you also know there's going to be smaller people on the he's you fractions or outliers, you know, anything most all of anything you can measure data falls onto a bell curve.

00;12;35;29 - 00;13;10;29
Donna Jackson
So you're always going to get people on either end. But the majority of people fall in the middle. And so if you go into a conversation with the assumption that chances are high, this person might, you know, be in the majority and falling in that, you know, large part of the bell curve and you can have a conversation with that person, you know, you kind of giving them the benefit of the doubt of, of a generous act of generosity that they're capable of meeting you there and then I think then, though, empathy is a learned skill.

00;13;11;05 - 00;13;36;07
Donna Jackson
So when you walk in someone else's shoes, it's a it's a little phrase that we use to describe empathy. And, you know, being in pretty much a business of I have to use empathy a lot in the work I do. I'm always aware it's an approximation and that I will never truly know that what that person's experience is, and I have to be willing to be corrected.

00;13;36;10 - 00;14;01;01
Donna Jackson
That if I think I know and I somehow reflect that back to them, they have the right to correct me. And then my job is to take in that correction so that I can learn if I truly want to understand what their experience is, they have the right to correct me and I have to be willing to then share the approximation I have and maybe make a mistake, right?

00;14;01;06 - 00;14;27;07
Donna Jackson
And and then recover from that mistake and be willing to learn. But it's never I'm never going to truly know what it's like for someone else. So you know, we use that a lot and we use it really quickly. But it does mean you have to be, you have to be able to tolerate that. You might be uncomfortable and you might not know where the conversation is going.

00;14;27;07 - 00;14;57;13
Donna Jackson
You might not really understand. And a lot of us aren't comfortable when we're not understanding something. We usually go into a conversation either to make our point and also to understand what the other person is saying. And to be understood. So when that starts to break down, people start to get upset, frustrated, annoyed. You know, they so it's hard to really stay with the conversation if someone else's experience is really different from yours, how do you stay with that conversation?

00;14;57;15 - 00;15;23;05
Donna Jackson
You know, and empathy is is it is something you have to practice, you know, and and be, willing to have your, your own experience. Like Troy was saying, he's had his own thoughts and feelings about going into this meeting, and he has to be aware of that and not impose that during the conversation or while he was writing the article.

00;15;23;07 - 00;15;38;20
Donna Jackson
So you have to be willing to suspend know what your beliefs and your feelings are, but be able to just suspend them a little bit so that you can really hear what the other person is, is telling you.

00;15;38;22 - 00;16;06;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, I really appreciate that, Donna. Thank you. My Chase reminding me of my training when I was being formed as a priest in seminary and all. And one of the things they taught us is to strike from our, vocabularies. You know, that phrase that, that goes something like, when you're talking to someone and they're sharing something maybe difficult with you, hard with you about an illness, about a death or something to say.

00;16;06;18 - 00;16;24;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh, I know how you feel. Because you don't you don't know how the person feels. Right? But you're right. We're so quick to say that with. Oh, I know how you feel. Well, do you really, you know, have you really walked in my shoes? Do you really know how we feel? Yeah. About something. Right. So you're right.

00;16;24;29 - 00;16;40;02
Rev. Will Mebane
That has to be. That has to be learned. So you're, good to have you back. As I said again. Good to see you. What's on your heart to do today? And I would say you.

00;16;40;04 - 00;17;15;12
Ewell Hopkins
Yeah. I've, I've thought about this a lot since hearing the tapes and listening, to both Troy and Donna. Now, the thing that stands out to me is, separating oneself from a historical perspective, which is kind of saying what we've already said it in a slightly different way. I'm pessimistic about the ability to appreciate and have empathy for people's legacy and the impact that that legacy has on their being.

00;17;15;15 - 00;17;51;29
Ewell Hopkins
What I'm optimistic about is our ability to, from this point, find common purpose and mutual respect and look forward so, what I mean by that is, I'm almost at the point of giving up on trying to explain to, non-black person what it's like to have been raised in this country as a black person. It's just tiring and overwhelming.

00;17;51;29 - 00;18;17;07
Ewell Hopkins
And anytime you think you're close to, you're not really quite there. And I don't know what the purpose is, but what I do know is that if we don't come together, we won't succeed. We won't exist. I talked about the natural world earlier in the last session. I think the environment is a big part of bringing us together, the impact that we have on the environment.

00;18;17;07 - 00;18;27;15
Ewell Hopkins
So I say looking forward versus trying to identify and understand the past is is a start and something that I'm willing to invest in.

00;18;28;09 - 00;18;53;21
Ewell Hopkins
In addition to that, I think we it's ironic with this, this show, the conversation. I think we talk too much. I think I think I talk too much. I think we have to find common experiences that are non-verbal through music, through meditation, through being one in nature, listening to the sound, the birds, not the sounds of our voices.

00;18;53;24 - 00;19;31;27
Ewell Hopkins
Because I believe that the more common experiences that we create with one another, the more we'll find commonality. So I'm all about creating sacred space. I'm all about, intentional, coming together and creating experiences when when you listen to another person's music and you feel their, their love for that band or for that genre of music with them, where that may normally not have been your cup of tea, I think you get closer to that person.

00;19;32;00 - 00;19;54;14
Ewell Hopkins
So maybe listen to some heavy metal if that is like the antithesis of what you think of as music with with a metal and and just experience the music together. Don't try to talk to one another, just experience the music together and try to find some vibe there and then take that forward. So I'm all about let's go forward together.

00;19;54;17 - 00;20;04;23
Ewell Hopkins
Because this whole thing of me kind of explaining to you where I'm coming from, I don't know, at 60 years old, I'm pretty much done with that.

00;20;04;25 - 00;20;43;10
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I remembering what I think with Gina, I said in the, on the street interview, she talked about the need to, go someplace different, right. Someplace different from where you would. That's normal for you. So you talk about the music. That's that's a brilliant example. Right? So, yeah. And instead of always migrating to the music that soothes your soul, think about listening to music that you might otherwise turn away from, with someone who does have an appreciation of that.

00;20;43;12 - 00;20;58;20
Rev. Will Mebane
And you may find commonality around around, something. But say, she said, we talk too much. I'm going to stop talking, and I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask Angela to, to join the conversation. What do you think about Angela?

00;20;58;22 - 00;21;08;24
Onjale Scott Price
Well, I saw Donna had, raised her hand for a moment. I and I've done. I wanted to say something along those lines before I, I make my comments that are slightly off topic.

00;21;08;24 - 00;21;17;10
Donna Jackson
Just that I think you will when you're, you know, I think it's. How do we remember the past? Because it's so important in terms of not repeating it.

00;21;17;13 - 00;21;33;07
Donna Jackson
And at the same time, how do we move forward together? And so the next question, when we listen to the people on the street talk about how do you they are related to each other like that, walk in someone else's shoes and how do you break out of your own bubble? They're kind of like the opposite sides of the same coin.

00;21;33;07 - 00;21;51;06
Donna Jackson
Like, we have to still be making some effort and doing things to break out of our own bubble and not just keep talking and talking. And I think including being with other people or having opening ourselves up to other experiences, just like when you travel. You know, I don't, but I'll talk about that a little bit more.

00;21;51;06 - 00;22;15;06
Donna Jackson
There's an analogy about traveling for me that was always interesting to think about when you break out of your own bubble, but we're not quite there yet. I think, though, in terms of empathy. And then that's what we're talking about when you talk about, walking someone else's shoes, it implies that phrase, though, is you've already judged someone before you judge someone.

00;22;15;08 - 00;22;38;07
Donna Jackson
So I get concerned because we're always the brain is trying to make predictions. That's its job. It makes predictions. Now we express predictions a lot of times in the form of judgments and usually dichotomous things. We're not very good at expressing them in a on a continuum or in Gray's. Things are right, wrong, good, bad, you know, black, white.

00;22;38;07 - 00;23;07;20
Donna Jackson
And so we get stuck in this dichotomous expression when our brain is just trying to make predictions, which is why bias is a problem. And you know that the brain is inherently going to quickly bring in information and come up with, a prediction which is going to come out as a judgment the very outside of our awareness, because it happens very quickly, because the brain's dealing with all this information and trying to streamline it.

00;23;07;23 - 00;23;25;19
Donna Jackson
So, you know, we are and I want to type later a little bit more about bias because empathy is great, but you're always going to be have bias in with the empathy. And you you know, are you aware of that. So.

00;23;25;21 - 00;24;01;01
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Crafting the brain is absolutely fascinating. We think about how it works. So I'm thinking specifically about what, what you all said about not wanting or not being done with trying to explain yourself. I'm part of an NSF funded project called urge Unlearning Racism in Geoscience, and it's a long story short, it's a anti-racist program for geoscientists to join into pods and to read various papers about how the geosciences is racist and how that came to be and what we can do about it.

00;24;01;01 - 00;24;43;13
Onjale Scott Price
Actually creating, policies and procedures for universities and for labs to, to follow so that they can become anti-racist. And it's interesting, our last week's session was about racism in history. So learning about how why are the geosciences the least diverse Stem disciplines? Why are we why are we that way? How did we get to that point? And so there is an aspect of needing to talk about the past, even though like we know that there so many scientists who were racist then they weren't called racism, but they were racist then, and their legacies live on, and we have their names on our streets and on our buildings, and we promote their legacy.

00;24;43;13 - 00;25;18;08
Onjale Scott Price
And we're we're separating the person from the scientists, which is. So you're separating who the person was and what they believed and their science. But you can't actually do that. You have to see the whole person that that this person's racist views supported their science or because of their views, they went a certain direction in their science. And so it's it's definitely we want to move forward and we want to say, okay, we want to fix this, but without understanding where we were or how we got to this place, it's hard to move forward.

00;25;18;15 - 00;25;39;23
Onjale Scott Price
But we're finding that it's difficult for people to even have those conversations about these racist scientists because they're just on this pedestal. And so when we try to bring up the history of, well, these are all the racist ideas they had, and this is how they colonized indigenous people in their science, in the name of science. You know, people have a really difficult time separating those things.

00;25;39;23 - 00;26;10;15
Onjale Scott Price
So how do you move forward in a conversation that know rocks themselves are not inherently racist, but the way that rocks have been studied on indigenous land without indigenous people, that is racist. So I said all that to say that I understand that is frustrating, and it's really annoying to have to continue to bring up the history, but it's really difficult for a lot of people to move forward without understanding how we got to that place in the first place.

00;26;10;17 - 00;26;13;26
Rev. Will Mebane
You will. I love to hear your response to that.

00;26;13;29 - 00;26;44;08
Ewell Hopkins
Yeah, well, I'm first and first of all, I totally connect. And what I hear I resonate with on so many levels. I agree. And what I believe is that we all have to figure out what our strengths are and what and how we can contribute and then contribute that way. What I'm saying is, I feel as though I have done a lot in my life to show the commonality of our humanity.

00;26;44;10 - 00;27;21;02
Ewell Hopkins
And more specifically, I've done a lot to try to help white people feel comfortable in the presence of black people, and bridging that gap and the results are far less than I would like to have them have been at this point. So what what I have seen through my observation, through my life is that we come together the best when we have a common focus, when we have a, common priority, when we have to a common accomplish a common task.

00;27;21;05 - 00;27;50;05
Ewell Hopkins
So my energy, I suspect, for the remainder of my life, will be on creating those common, that common perspective that we can take forward because there's so much guilt associated with just the creation of this country. This country is it's lunacy. When you think about what it took to create this country. And when people talk about how proud they are of America, I understand that pride.

00;27;50;08 - 00;28;19;12
Ewell Hopkins
But a lot of the pain is loss. It's the the exploitation of humanity and of land and cheap labor to create wealth. Generational wealth was done on the back and through the lives of people who look like me. And, we're not going to fix that. What we're going to have to do is try to find, you know, a piece, a line in the sand that we can move forward from because we're not going to go backwards.

00;28;19;12 - 00;28;47;05
Ewell Hopkins
Reparations are not going to happen to any significant degree. Generational wealth will not be restored. Because there is so much unfounded wealth in our society that you don't want to really dig in to how it was created, because it was created through such pain that those individuals will say, I wasn't involved in slavery, you know, in the northeast, were so proud of how diverse and how progressive we are.

00;28;47;08 - 00;29;05;13
Ewell Hopkins
You know, it all started here. I mean, we're the culprits of so much pain in this country, and I just feel as though where others will look back, and I'm so encouraged that they will. My purpose is to try to find commonality and look forward, because I don't think we can fix the past.

00;29;05;16 - 00;29;26;00
Onjale Scott Price
Absolutely. And I personally feel like there are so many resources that are already out there, people who have wanted to tell their history and have wanted to explore that history, have written books and blogs and have TV shows and podcasts. And so, I do think that there are a lot of resources that people could tap into if they actually wanted to learn that.

00;29;26;00 - 00;29;32;03
Onjale Scott Price
And people like you, you can use, can use your spirit and your energy to do different things.

00;29;32;06 - 00;29;34;12
Ewell Hopkins
Yeah. Thank you.

00;29;34;14 - 00;30;16;05
Rev. Will Mebane
So this whole this whole thing about moving forward, is reminding me of of something I watched the, new white House press secretary, and one of her, recent daily briefings. Amazing. We have daily white House briefings again. That's another story. But one of the things she the peak of it, the reporters keep trying to get her to talk about the former administration, the former president, and sort of do this juxtaposition of what the current administration is trying to do versus what was done.

00;30;16;08 - 00;30;39;03
Rev. Will Mebane
And she keeps repeating something that I've also heard, the current president say is that, you know, I'm not looking back. We're not looking backwards. We are looking forward. That's where our, that's where we investing our energy. That's where we're investing time and our resources is what's coming, not looking at what was. And at the same time.

00;30;39;05 - 00;31;27;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, you know, those who don't know, know the history are destined to repeat it. I think someone once said, right. And so there's a need to know that history. But I'm like you, you all. I gotta tell you, I'm tired, brother, I am tired. I mean, I am literally physically exhausted from it, and it's it's sometimes it takes all that I can muster to try to engage a person who is not a person of color, someone who is white, into another conversation about what it's like when the news reports that once again, there's an example of that a black life doesn't matter.

00;31;27;08 - 00;31;53;04
Rev. Will Mebane
So we have the case of Daniel Prude in Rochester, New York, a mentally ill man naked in the streets and in the cold, being handcuffed by police officers, thrown on the ground, forced to lie on the cold pavement, and then a spit hood put on him, and then he, he dies as a result of their actions.

00;31;53;04 - 00;32;12;26
Rev. Will Mebane
And there's no accountability for that. The grand jury says, oh, you know, there was nothing wrong with what happened there. And so when someone tried to engage me recently in a conversation about a, well, what do you think about that? I, I just didn't have the energy. I didn't have that that that expression, you know, new expression, the bandwidth.

00;32;13;03 - 00;32;27;01
Rev. Will Mebane
I just didn't have the bandwidth for it. You know, I was like, you know, it's just another example. There was about the only thing I could say, but let me, let me move this to, I brought up government. I'll come to you. I wanted to come to you right now, so go ahead, go ahead.

00;32;27;03 - 00;32;47;02
Troy Clarkson
Well, but but I think you raised an excellent point. And and I think if we're going to have an honest conversation about this topic, I think that people who are not of color, people who look like me, need to be willing to remember that not every conversation you have with a person of color has to be about their color, right?

00;32;47;05 - 00;33;16;12
Troy Clarkson
So that will happen. And I met, I don't know, several years ago now when he first came to Falmouth. And and we've had, I don't know, dozens of conversations and we've met for coffee many times. And what we share is our shared humanity. Right. The only time I think, well, that that race ever became an issue in a discussion we had was when we talked about the fact that there's another guy that lives in Falmouth named Wilmington, and he's white, but they're related.

00;33;16;14 - 00;33;53;24
Troy Clarkson
And so I think it's important to acknowledge that it's okay to have a conversation with somebody who doesn't look like you or doesn't think like you, and not talk about what separates you or what divides you and just exist together. Right. And talk about, you know, Will and I have talked about our faith and, our talk about, you know, our families or we talk about recovery or a whole host of things and, and so I think if we're all willing to intensify the conversation a little bit and just exist with one another, and, and and you.

00;33;53;29 - 00;34;22;17
Troy Clarkson
Right. And maybe just sit in quiet with one another or or, you know, listen to to others. And I think it's important to acknowledge that, that that does not, ignore the horrific past that exist. It does not ignore that, that these very important public policy, racial issues exist in our society. But what it does mean is our shared humanity is as important, if not more so.

00;34;22;20 - 00;34;57;09
Troy Clarkson
And any of those issues singularly. And by that, what I mean is our our connections as human to me transcend, you know, how much melatonin is. It is in us. Melanin. Excuse me. So I, you know, I think remembering that and going back to the theme at the beginning of, of our visit today, being willing to listen and just be with others and try to just share some humanity, you know, rather than sharing differences.

00;34;57;12 - 00;35;12;16
Troy Clarkson
Is is a good start. And, it that happens. One relationship at a time and one community at a time. And, you know, I think that's a good starting place for us.

00;35;13;21 - 00;35;18;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Andrea, I think I saw you and I saw Donna also. Yeah. Go ahead. Donna.

00;35;18;20 - 00;35;49;25
Donna Jackson
Well, I think go ahead, Nancy, because I was, Sure. Okay. Well, so this is where it all gets tricky, right? I agree with you, Troy. And yet there's plenty of people who say I don't see color, and I just want to see our shared humanity. And when they do that, they invalidate the toxic stress and trauma that people of color have experienced in our nation.

00;35;49;28 - 00;36;16;24
Donna Jackson
So the language matters, like, and how you say it and when you saying who says it and the kind of conversation you're having, the type of relationship you have with that person, you know, and I think that that's where it gets tricky and that people are, I think the next generation coming in, maybe a little less worn down.

00;36;16;24 - 00;36;51;22
Donna Jackson
And let's hope they are right. And they will have the energy as young people do, to, move things forward and to look forward and to continue to kind of create a more, he they bring out the humane and the, humanity. Right? So that we're not having to have these conversations and, you know, we've gotten further in the last year with a lot of violence and protest.

00;36;51;22 - 00;37;35;26
Donna Jackson
Not the same thing, but the protests, the, the lack of attention to things that have been tolerated and the language that honestly, the damage that's been done over the last four years with the language that's been used, you know, we're going to have I do think healing means having more conversations, and not about who you are today, but you know, where you've come from and how you got to this moment, like our, our ancestral all of everything everyone did things that were wrong and brutal and things that we're sacrificing.

00;37;35;26 - 00;38;12;10
Donna Jackson
And, incredibly generous. You know, I watched Finding Your Roots with, Henry Louis Gates and and I love watching it, regardless of the person's race, when you watch someone of color trace their race, their roots back. So you're going to hear a lot of trauma and, that's an important. I think it's important for us to bear witness that we haven't fully borne witness to, that brutality in order to have the kind of conversations where people can heal.

00;38;12;12 - 00;38;52;28
Donna Jackson
And, I think that show is a good place to do that. And Pharrell Williams was, recently, and he wrote that song Happy, which is a wonderful, you know, upbeat song. But he, he during the this is the first time ever in five years of that show being taped that, they stopped the show and they let him leave, and they went back a few weeks later because, Skip gates felt was watching him struggle, like he was spending four minutes just staring off into space when he was hearing about his great great grandparents and what they went through.

00;38;53;01 - 00;39;22;05
Donna Jackson
And I was in tears watching the show. It's, you know, we desensitize ourselves to other people's humanity. That was Pharrell Williams learning about what his ancestors went through. And if you can feel what that was like for him while you watch that show, you know this is around it. We're back to empathy again. You know, here's someone who writes a song happy, and he's a successful American by all standards.

00;39;22;07 - 00;39;42;23
Donna Jackson
And, you know, I think it was a really powerful moment for them to show that and go back and talk with him about what was happening and what was happening was he was fighting his own emotional response to the what looks like factual information. If you wanted to treat it like factual information, you could, but it wasn't factual information.

00;39;42;23 - 00;40;04;06
Donna Jackson
These were his family members who had sacrificed for him. So until we included the the human stories and the emotions and I don't know how much further we can get with this.

00;40;04;09 - 00;40;23;28
Onjale Scott Price
Well, I haven't seen the show and now I'm not sure I want to see it now. One thing that has been said a few times is being worn down. I know, Reverend, I have had these conversations about being worn down. You all is black, so I assume that at some point he is or has been worn down.

00;40;24;00 - 00;40;43;15
Onjale Scott Price
And that's something that I'm a bit worried about for myself. I last year, 2020, I bought a bunch of books and I was like, I'm going to read these books back now. The Autobiography of Malcolm X, medical apartheid, stamped from the beginning. You know, these books. And I got through a couple and I just I couldn't do it anymore.

00;40;43;15 - 00;41;05;23
Onjale Scott Price
I couldn't live my life being black in a white community, working with white people every day, and then read this stuff that was supposed to be my downtime. But in my downtime, I was reading about my own history and history of this country, of of my people. And what's the trauma? As we say it, I just I couldn't function, I couldn't I couldn't do anything.

00;41;05;23 - 00;41;25;10
Onjale Scott Price
I had to find somewhere to take a break. And sometimes it's difficult to take a break with within the community where I don't get a break or I don't. If I am not hanging out with my husband who's black, or hanging out with Reverend Will and his wife, I don't have I don't have a space where I can just be.

00;41;25;12 - 00;41;43;11
Onjale Scott Price
I mean, I have great friends, great white allies and mixed allies who are here, but it's just not it's not quite the same to not be able to just be. And so I don't know what the original point I was going to make with that is, but.

00;41;43;13 - 00;41;45;22
Ewell Hopkins
You made that point I.

00;41;45;24 - 00;41;46;23
Onjale Scott Price
Okay, okay.

00;41;46;23 - 00;42;15;06
Ewell Hopkins
Thank you know, you made that you made you you made the point and and it's it's so true. I don't I'm not, I'm not, ashamed or disappointed that I'm worn down. I think it's it's wise for me to understand where I can contribute to the larger conversation. I, I wear my name as a badge of honor.

00;42;15;07 - 00;42;56;25
Ewell Hopkins
I never lose sight of the fact that being the third generation in my family, that was born free, my grandfather, who I cared deeply about, was raised by a man who was owned by someone else until he was 20 years old. It's it's it's not theoretical at all. The whole idea that I was perceived as less than human in terms of my ancestors, but it's more complicated than that because that slave was also a member of the Confederate Army, and the daughters of the Confederacy tend to his grave to this day.

00;42;56;27 - 00;43;25;14
Ewell Hopkins
It's really it's not as simple as the North was good and the South was bad. For black folks, you know, Emancipation Proclamation took care was a brilliant military maneuver to undermine the Confederacy, but it did nothing for the freedom of blacks in northern states. I so I've never had this sense that, the union was the answer and the Confederacy was the problem.

00;43;25;17 - 00;43;49;22
Ewell Hopkins
It's so much more complicated than that. So I, I look at being a black man in this society, and I say the most important thing you can do is figure out. And I think for all black people to figure out what is rejuvenating, what gives you strength, what allows you to go forward, not what is depleting. There's enough places to be depleted on a daily basis.

00;43;49;22 - 00;44;17;07
Ewell Hopkins
To your point, you have to find those places where you get stronger. And to me, it's really solace. It's really being alone as as public of a person I am. Being by myself, is really my secret weapon. There's a reason I live on an island. You know, I didn't. I wasn't born here, I intentionally came here, and I've intentionally stayed here.

00;44;17;09 - 00;44;36;15
Ewell Hopkins
We have to find those things. And I understand what you say about those books. I mean, it just sometimes you just. You just got to put it down and then go do what you can do, and I'll leave the historical proportions to others. And I love your comment. When you say the data, the information is out there for the seeking spirit.

00;44;36;17 - 00;44;56;06
Ewell Hopkins
The person who truly wants to understand how the transcontinental railroad was created, that, doesn't have to wonder too long and they don't have to go find some Asian Americans to get the answer. They can. They can learn if they truly want to learn. So I don't have to be the teacher anymore. And I, I've decided not to be the teacher.

00;44;56;10 - 00;45;00;07
Ewell Hopkins
I've been the teacher to long.

00;45;00;09 - 00;45;27;06
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, we're going to move to the, to the second question and the couple comments before we before we do that, just said, when Donna, you were talking about the generations and how the hope is in the younger generations, the generations that will come, after you and in my generation, you know, boy, I've been hearing that for so long.

00;45;27;08 - 00;45;49;01
Rev. Will Mebane
And my, you know, my father, my father's father said to him, you know, thing is going to be better for you. And then my father had the hopes for my brothers and my sister and me. That thing is going to be different for you. You're not going to have to deal with this. And and then my spouse and I have two sons and we we.

00;45;49;04 - 00;46;15;00
Rev. Will Mebane
So it's going to be different for them. They're not and it's not and it's not and it's not and so that, you know, one of the reasons that maybe that's one of the reasons the AMA decided that, racism causes black folks to have PTSD. And, and it really does take years off of our lives.

00;46;15;03 - 00;46;33;21
Rev. Will Mebane
So I want to get to that. Donna wanted to talk about bias, but, why don't we first take a listen to, how people on the street and see what they had to say in response to, to our second question, which was, you know, how do we break out of our own bubbles? All right.

00;46;33;21 - 00;46;41;23
Rev. Will Mebane
We'll be back right after this.

00;46;41;26 - 00;47;01;15
Gina Brown
To get out of your bubble, I think, I've mentioned something before about actually going into other environments somewhere that's outside of your own immediate space that may sound like a lot, but just something simple. Like maybe find a coffee shop in a neighborhood you don't normally go to, or.

00;47;01;17 - 00;47;01;26
Gina Brown
If.

00;47;01;26 - 00;47;25;05
Gina Brown
It's warm weather, go to a park in an area you don't go to, just literally if you may have to get outside of your comfort zone, but not something forced like, drive or something contrived to draw people. It's got to be something that people want to do. And that's hard because we tend to want legislation and regulation.

00;47;25;05 - 00;47;38;06
Gina Brown
But a lot of the things that may need to be done, or some of them are small enough to where we can just do them and not have to worry about, organizing, so to speak.

00;47;38;09 - 00;48;00;11
Ken Armstead
Certainly, the news cycle doesn't necessarily aid in, providing a narrative that might be enlightening, particularly from some aspects of, sort of partizan, dissemination.

00;48;00;14 - 00;48;25;20
Ethan Peal
I will watch people post things that just aren't true about both sides, and then people don't bother to research it whatsoever. They just see it on the Instagram post. They read the surface level text on the on the square, and they just go with that. And even the wording in general news articles, it's like if you if you look at it in unbiased sense as, oh, I walked into this place, what is going on?

00;48;25;22 - 00;48;46;05
Ethan Peal
Like you don't if you didn't know there was like an election and all this stuff happening, who's walked in? What is going on? You could read those headlines and be like, oh, they're bias for most of the websites. You could read those websites and be like, oh, they're sarcastic, they're biased, and it's just people will just read the headline, they won't read the article.

00;48;46;07 - 00;48;53;17
Ethan Peal
And even if they clarify in the article, the headline, which is meant to get people to read it, doesn't work. They just read it and be like, oh, so that's what's happening.

00;48;53;17 - 00;48;57;29
Paul Rifkin
Know that partizanship, thinking that.

00;48;58;02 - 00;48;59;04
Paul Rifkin
I'm right.

00;48;59;07 - 00;49;02;04
Paul Rifkin
You're you're bad. That's not going to make us.

00;49;02;07 - 00;49;03;09
Paul Rifkin
Move forward.

00;49;03;12 - 00;49;14;26
Paul Rifkin
We need to, like, talk to each other. We need to listen to each other. We need to respect each other, and we need to work together in order to, make our society work.

00;49;14;28 - 00;49;39;23
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, once again, our people on the street have given us, things to think about and to talk about. So we're going to continue the conversation, specifically around, you know, what do we do? What can we do to get out of our bubbles? And I'm going to come to you, Donna, because you had some, some thoughts, I think, earlier about that.

00;49;39;23 - 00;49;44;24
Rev. Will Mebane
So share with us what's on your mind or.

00;49;44;26 - 00;50;03;28
Donna Jackson
Well, I think, you know, Gina was saying it doesn't have to be something big. It can be small, which I think is great. That way you can't make excuses that you can't do these other big, grander kind of plans. It can be very simple and small. And so, you know, I think it's you're setting you're intentionally doing that.

00;50;03;29 - 00;50;34;00
Donna Jackson
It does require effort. And so if it's putting your values into action, if it's something you value, that's easy to say and words, but your, your values usually are more evident in your behavior. Right. That's how you know someone's values, not in their words. And so you do have to look at are you putting the effort, the intention, and then the effort into changing your behavior.

00;50;34;03 - 00;50;53;28
Donna Jackson
And so, you know, I think that that means it's sort of like you have to tolerate that. Maybe you'll be a little uncomfortable and there might be a little bit of distress because it's not it's going to be new to you. It's not going to be your old familiar thing that you do. So, you know, when you go on a trip, whenever I go on a trip, I'm excited.

00;50;53;28 - 00;51;09;13
Donna Jackson
But I also am a little stressed, right? You have to pack, you have to go out and you're a little uncomfortable on the airplane, and you get somewhere and you have a little bit of jet lag, and that's all part of going on the trip. You know, you take it in stride as you travel and that's what it's going to be like.

00;51;09;13 - 00;51;47;07
Donna Jackson
But we don't always that's not how we approach going outside of our own bubble. Like we don't see it. That's going to take maybe a little bit of effort on our end. And then you know that. Well, by doing that, you know, what might we take away from it? Like what's the purpose of why we're doing that? You know, hopefully it's to live our values and it's also to learn, you know, maybe it's to do something different, you know, something so that you are continuing to grow and learn and, you know, but a lot of times when we travel, like, I think there are people who do have ulterior motives, like, are they just

00;51;47;07 - 00;52;10;07
Donna Jackson
doing it to be part of the woke culture, right? To where the t shirt. I'm a little concerned about the marketing type of. There's so many t shirts and other things coming out. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, wait a minute, it's people are making getters are making money off of this like it is. I don't know, it's that was so upsetting lately to see.

00;52;10;07 - 00;52;40;00
Donna Jackson
But yeah like at target I'm like mainstream availability but and when you travel like it's not about wearing the t shirt, I mean you take the t shirt home, but if you live on Cape Cod, you generally don't wear Cape Cod t shirts very often. Right. So you I think just that if you're doing, going outside your bubble to really it does mean a little more than just you showed up once or you checked off a box.

00;52;40;03 - 00;52;55;06
Donna Jackson
I mean, you can travel that way. You can have a bucket list, and it can just be, impression management and check off the box. You're able to have bragging rights, but is that really why you went on? Why you travel if that's the only reason you traveled? I'm not sure what you got out of that. No.

00;52;55;09 - 00;53;06;00
Donna Jackson
So when you're going outside your bubble you know hopefully you're aware of why you're doing it or you know you're doing it with intention.

00;53;07;04 - 00;53;28;11
Onjale Scott Price
I'd also like to add that's a really great analogy about travel is when you're traveling to somewhere you've never been before, you generally do a little bit of research before you go. You don't just go in blind. I was once with a great white friend of mine who went to an HBCU, and he found this nice area of land with a bunch of benches, and he went and sat down and we were like, you can't sit there.

00;53;28;12 - 00;53;50;23
Onjale Scott Price
He's like, well, why not just a bench? And like, because that is the Greek plot. That is where the Greeks have their plots. And if you are not part of that fraternity or sorority, you can't sit there. And and he really didn't know and it was very, very genuine. But it's like part of that, that analogy of like if he had asked like, oh, what are all of these different color things here that I've never seen before?

00;53;50;23 - 00;54;06;23
Onjale Scott Price
Instead of just seeing it as a bench, you know, that that wouldn't it wasn't a big deal. But the point is, when you're traveling somewhere, especially somewhere you've never been before, you do, you do some research. You don't just go in blind and assume that whatever you're normally accustomed to is what is going to be normal or acceptable.

00;54;06;23 - 00;54;28;23
Onjale Scott Price
They're like, I, we were planning a trip to the UAE last year that Covid canceled, but we were thinking, okay, what what do I have to wear? What what is appropriate for me to wear while I'm there? I know I can't wear certain things or I shouldn't if I want to be appropriate. And so when we're thinking about going outside of our bubbles is what what is what is there?

00;54;28;23 - 00;54;40;01
Onjale Scott Price
What research can I do to prepare myself to be appropriate, to be respectful before I get there, instead of getting there and I don't know something bad happening.

00;54;40;03 - 00;55;18;24
Rev. Will Mebane
But this, this conversation about, travel is reminding me of something I've noticed when we've had the opportunity of the privilege and the good fortune to be able to travel. You know, sometimes people bring their bubbles with them, and you, you know, if you've ever gone on a cruise, which we like to do, boy, you would think for folks just demand that things just be the same way they are back in Falmouth, you know, or Kentucky or Louisville or whatever.

00;55;18;27 - 00;55;37;24
Rev. Will Mebane
We, you know, we like to get off the beaten path, and we'd like to find out where the local yokels hang out. And, you know, sometimes it can be a little dangerous to go off the beaten path, but, you know, that's where we want to be, to try to do the education, to get outside of the bubble and and do the self-education that, that, that we're talking about.

00;55;37;24 - 00;55;42;03
Rev. Will Mebane
But, you joy what, what what's on your mind?

00;55;42;05 - 00;56;19;25
Troy Clarkson
So I think that, in many ways over the last generation, technology has expanded our horizons, right? Almost limitlessly beyond our imaginations, pre-internet, but it also has hardened our bubbles and made them so much smaller. And one of the challenges for us is, from an electro sonic social media internet standpoint, remembering that, we, many of us exist within our own social media and internet silos.

00;56;19;28 - 00;56;49;01
Troy Clarkson
And part of getting out of the bubble is not only realizing, that there's information, tremendous sources, but that we have an obligation to, to exist outside of those internet and social media bubbles. And, and, you know, Reverend. Well, when you were talking about, the way you, you and your spouse travel, I would equate that to curiosity.

00;56;49;03 - 00;57;12;08
Troy Clarkson
Right. And it's okay to have curiosity and not simply be content with our bubbles in how we exist and with whom we exist. And I think that's a challenge for all of us to be willing to step outside of that in our typical routines and our comfort zones and our Twitter feeds and the Facebook groups to which we will belong.

00;57;12;10 - 00;57;41;08
Troy Clarkson
And, and seek out information and try to learn, and understand and listen. And, you know, listening isn't just with the ears. It can be with the eyes to write, reading and understanding, different cultures and different points of view. My, I mentioned during the break, my wife and I, going on vacation, and, one of the places we regularly visit is Saint Martin because we have a timeshare there.

00;57;41;08 - 00;57;59;26
Troy Clarkson
But one of the things I love about it is the island is divided between the Dutch side and the French side, and we stay on the Dutch side. But I love to go to the French side because I want to learn and understand how they're different and how differently they're governed in meet people, you know, from the island.

00;57;59;26 - 00;58;22;14
Troy Clarkson
And so I think that sort of example is a challenge for all of us to be willing to, you know, to visit the French side of the island in our own lives, and, and, and seek out information that may make us uncomfortable. But that probably makes us broader, and hopefully more tolerant.

00;58;22;16 - 00;58;24;29
Rev. Will Mebane
You all. I saw you were going to get in on this.

00;58;25;02 - 00;58;55;13
Ewell Hopkins
Oh, yeah. Sure. And slightly, slightly different, but in the same vein of travel, so much of my my awareness and discovery outside of my bubble is introspective and it's, self-perception. I am, I was raised in a, in an environment, in a binary environment around gender as an example, you are a man or you're a woman, boy or a girl.

00;58;55;15 - 00;59;38;15
Ewell Hopkins
And the whole idea of gender being a continuum and what that really means to an individual that finds themself somewhere in the spectrum, not in either extreme or is fluid and is moving, is something that has been uncomfortable for me at times, but yet very important for me to understand and try to embrace. So moving outside of my bubble is, self-awareness of what is it that society is inflicting upon you as you define who you are and what is really resonating from within you?

00;59;38;17 - 01;00;16;00
Ewell Hopkins
And what happens when we give and create a caring enough environment that the manifestations of the individuals are truly from within versus, imposed upon, from without. So I, through I through solidarity, publicize my preferred pronouns. Now that's new to me, but that's very important to me because I want to create an environment for individuals to truly listen to themselves and not what we're telling them they should hear.

01;00;16;02 - 01;00;41;09
Ewell Hopkins
I am we talked earlier, very involved in town government, and I am the chair of the planning board, and I put a lot of work into the planning board for a couple of reasons. But one main reason is I want to create a nurturing enough environment that we collectively can define where we're going as a community versus it happening externally through developers or others.

01;00;41;09 - 01;01;06;03
Ewell Hopkins
Self-interest. To be able to say, what is it that our community values that we want to preserve, that we want to encourage? I laughed when Troy talked about, you know, people coming and having to say coming and bringing their reality to situations. And I always say, if you're on the vineyard and you're rushing down the road, you have only two places on the island where that's legitimate.

01;01;06;06 - 01;01;30;05
Ewell Hopkins
One is heading to the boat when boats are going, we'll give you a little slack, and the other is getting to the hospital. Anywhere else, chill out. You don't have to rush. You don't have to pass. You don't have to go fast. It'll be there. Just chill out. So I have no patience for people who are rushing away from the hospital in the boat because I say, there's nothing you have to get to.

01;01;30;08 - 01;02;06;25
Ewell Hopkins
I say all of that because, so much of our perception of how we feel is, comes from within. And if we create an environment where we allow the individual, whether it be in terms of self reflection or in behavior, truly figure out why they're jacked or not jacked, we're a better society. So so my answer is that that introspective view, creating a nurturing and purposeful enough environment that people can hear themselves quiet the noise down enough for people to hear themselves.

01;02;06;27 - 01;02;36;16
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, that introspection that work on self reflection and self-awareness? It reminds me of something one of the I think it was Ken who said, that religion can can play a role in and this religious institutions can play a role in this, to help develop what he described as the moral compass, the moral compass.

01;02;36;16 - 01;03;04;07
Rev. Will Mebane
And, I actually preached on this just a couple of weeks ago, in the season of lent. And I made the try to make the point that, you know, lent is a time for introspection and reflection on oneself and slowing down, as you were saying, you all and, you know, my writing, my spouse said, said when we we've been on the Cape maybe 2 or 3 months, she said, you know what?

01;03;04;09 - 01;03;09;19
Rev. Will Mebane
I think we're gonna live longer. And I was like, what? Why? And she said.

01;03;09;21 - 01;03;10;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Things aren't as.

01;03;10;18 - 01;03;36;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Fast pace here. It's every place else. We've been in Cleveland and Buffalo and, Connecticut. Yeah, I think we're going to live longer. Right. So there's something to, to, to slowing down. You're right, you're right. We got a couple minutes left. Anyone have anything? They'd like to make sure they share before we we end this conversation.

01;03;36;28 - 01;04;04;20
Donna Jackson
I think, for me, I just would love to talk a little bit about that introspection and the self-awareness. And, you know, hopefully that there's a lot more of that happening with the mindfulness movement. That and, you know, it's getting more mainstreamed. And, you know, the one thing in hopefully, I think people start to learn more about how our brains work because it's relevant to understanding then how we react.

01;04;04;22 - 01;04;39;29
Donna Jackson
And I also would like people know maybe a little more about trauma, and the impact of trauma on humans. You know, there's, there's things that you are going to see when people have been traumatized. We already know some of those symptoms that happened to people and then how to help them heal. And, you know, unfortunately, as we've become we're it's about a sense healing within a community, you know, and that's the part that we don't quite have right now is how to be a community and how to heal and community.

01;04;40;01 - 01;05;09;07
Donna Jackson
And I do think part of healing, though, is having witnesses. And, bearing witness to that. And that means and also that has to be in a safe community. So that has to be where you feel welcomed and understood and, and you can listen to your own sense of self that's true to you. And you can express that safely.

01;05;09;09 - 01;05;57;20
Donna Jackson
And so, you know, we're, you know, hopefully there's are some places we're doing that. And, you know, whether that's, on an island like Martha's Vineyard or, you know, whether that's within faith communities or, you know, I think everyone doing their part, though, in each of our own individual, what we do for work, you know, I think changing those communities, our work communities, our families, you know, how are we talking to each other and our families and, those are all ways that we can continue, I think, to be honest with ourselves and to.

01;05;57;22 - 01;06;28;03
Donna Jackson
Be there for each other and to really focus on being in the world, in our human kindness. Like, what does that mean? You know, what's our legacy? What are we leaving for our children, for the next generation? And I hope we can all agree upon we want to leave them a healthy, safe planet and community. So there's that forward looking forward.

01;06;28;03 - 01;06;31;10
Donna Jackson
Right. Which, you know,

01;06;31;12 - 01;06;55;02
Rev. Will Mebane
Where there's common ground, I know between you all and you the and and I presume all of us around the environment that, we do need to reconnect and develop a deeper appreciation for the environment. And maybe that's the thing amongst all the noise and there are so many other challenges out there. Maybe that's one area where we can find that common ground.

01;06;55;04 - 01;07;25;08
Rev. Will Mebane
We can change our language and we can do the teaching of our to our family members and, those who come behind us, we're trying to do our part here with this show. The conversation. Thank you. I can't say it enough. Thank you, Troy Clarkson. Thank you. Your Hopkins. Thank you, doctor Donna Jackson. I I'm feeling like we could keep this conversation going for even another episode.

01;07;25;11 - 01;07;51;19
Rev. Will Mebane
And so we thank you for coming back and being part of this, part to, as we wrestle with. How do we bridge the divide? How do we talk across the aisle? How do we walk in the shoes of the other? How do we get out of our bubbles? My thanks to, CTV, to Deborah Rogers and Alan Russell and Tony Sardar and all the people behind the scenes that make this show possible.

01;07;51;19 - 01;08;03;16
Rev. Will Mebane
And especially to, my co-host and, friend Angela Scott Price. Can't wait to get you back to the house. Like, we'll do that.

01;08;03;16 - 01;08;07;28
Onjale Scott Price
So looking forward to it. Like you wouldn't believe.

01;08;08;00 - 01;08;17;09
Rev. Will Mebane
That's our show for this episode. Thank you. Don't forget, we might you might make you part of the conversation at some point as well.