00;00;08;19 - 00;00;38;19
Onjale Scott Price
Welcome back to another episode of The Conversation on TV. My amazing co-host, the Reverend Will Memon, and I will be talking to some guests today about what has been called the insurrection at the Capitol that happened on January 6th, just a few weeks ago, and it seems that we're all still trying to work through how we feel about it, how to process it, and what we're going to do next.

00;00;38;21 - 00;01;10;07
Onjale Scott Price
So this show, the conversation, we have conversation. So today we want to talk about how do we have conversations after this. Specifically we're going to focus on what role did race play in the events that happened at the Capitol. And then how do we overcome these obviously deep divisions in our country. So to start, we'll talk to a few people on the street, see what they have to say.

00;01;10;09 - 00;01;13;13
Ken Armstead
Improprieties that were alluded to in regards to.

00;01;13;13 - 00;01;15;07
Ken Armstead
The election may.

00;01;15;07 - 00;01;26;15
Ken Armstead
Have catalyzed, the activity, but I don't think viewing the images, of, what what's going on in the Capitol that there.

00;01;26;15 - 00;01;28;15
Ken Armstead
Can be any, any doubt.

00;01;28;21 - 00;01;47;29
Paul Rifkin
Race played a great role in what happened on January 6th in Washington, D.C.. Oppression and exploitation have always been a major part of the fabric of our society, of our nation.

00;01;48;01 - 00;01;50;11
Paul Rifkin
And the fall.

00;01;50;14 - 00;01;53;15
Paul Rifkin
Fruits of that were.

00;01;53;17 - 00;01;55;07
Paul Rifkin
Certainly made.

00;01;55;11 - 00;01;58;14
Paul Rifkin
Quite clear for.

00;01;58;17 - 00;01;59;01
Paul Rifkin
On that.

00;01;59;01 - 00;02;03;09
Paul Rifkin
Disastrous insurrection that took place in D.C..

00;02;03;12 - 00;02;31;00
Gina Brown
You know, from what I saw once they got there and they kicked in windows and got inside and scaled the walls, looking very much like a lot of the stereotypes that, some of them I'd be willing to bet have in the past thrown, you know, expletives at. But once they got in, it looked like the best they could do is walk off with public property or sit in someone's chair or mess up someone's office.

00;02;31;02 - 00;02;56;17
Gina Brown
Now, I could be wrong, but I doubt that changed anything. I doubt whatever platform they had. If they had one would be taken seriously. But now, when you saw earlier this summer the BLM protests, which really kind of came to not fruition, but really touched off behind the George Floyd murder and that's what I'm going to call it, murder on TV.

00;02;56;19 - 00;03;25;06
Gina Brown
Amazingly, you know, the police were able to mobilize the National Guard. Troops were mobilized to farm, right? Tear gas was hurled at certain, protesters to clear the way for the president. But a week or so ago, when we saw the same thing, you saw people tripping over their feet like Elmer Fudd hunting rabbits, you know? So I would say race played a big part.

00;03;25;08 - 00;03;41;15
Ethan Peal
If if a, if it was a group of Black Lives Matter protesters walking up to peacefully protest something, the cops would be pushing them over and probably shooting rubber bullets at them. But they weren't. The cops were more than willing to just let them walk out.

00;03;41;17 - 00;03;45;23
Paul Rifkin
It's made. It made it really clear. It was a clear.

00;03;45;23 - 00;03;52;22
Paul Rifkin
Example, if you will, of how racism works, where in this country where there are different.

00;03;52;22 - 00;03;56;21
Paul Rifkin
Rules and different outcomes.

00;03;56;23 - 00;03;59;22
Paul Rifkin
Based on what race you are.

00;03;59;25 - 00;04;01;14
Ken Armstead
I guess there will be excuses.

00;04;01;14 - 00;04;08;07
Ken Armstead
Made, certainly in the legal context as to motivation and,

00;04;08;09 - 00;04;23;21
Ken Armstead
Circumstance and I don't think it changes the underlying texture, of the actions, the, displays.

00;04;23;23 - 00;04;29;00
Ken Armstead
The, the words.

00;04;29;24 - 00;04;49;11
Onjale Scott Price
Well. Welcome back. We just heard from our people on the street. I want to thank all of our panelists for being here today, to have this conversation with us. And so, to begin, I'd like to discuss, what role did race play in the events, the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th, 2021. And I'd like to first hear from Troy, I try.

00;04;49;11 - 00;05;14;10
Onjale Scott Price
I know you were the author of Troy's take part of the Falmouth Enterprise every week, which I enjoy reading. And also the CFO for the city of Brockton. And you're also the principal of Clark Consulting, where you specialize in government relations, strategic planning, communications, and more. So I'm sure you have some experience in this. And so what are your thoughts on what role race played in the insurrection at the Capitol?

00;05;14;12 - 00;05;47;00
Troy Clarkson
Well, thank you. And I'm very, very happy to be here with, with the panelist. And I think it absolutely you have to acknowledge it. Absolutely. Played a role, but not just in the insurrection. That happened on the sixth. But, in our society is progressed and this goes back not to the civil rights movement or even, before that, but but, you know, the negotiations that led to our Constitution, had their roots, in the conflict between the slave owning states and the free states.

00;05;47;00 - 00;06;20;02
Troy Clarkson
And so until we acknowledge that this problem is that systemic, that goes back that far, and I don't think we'll be able to make progress. And as somebody who myself and supervised police agencies during my career, we have to acknowledge that that that plays a role. And, and we also have to train and teach our law enforcement people, of those, inherent biases that they have, and be willing to acknowledge that if we're going to have any chance of moving forward.

00;06;20;04 - 00;06;39;01
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Excellent points. You know, I'd like to ask you, so you were a 2016 Democratic candidate for the Massachusetts House of Representatives for Barnstable County, among others? And I know you're on the Oak Bluffs Planning Board and you're incredibly involved in your community. So what are your thoughts?

00;06;39;03 - 00;07;00;20
Ewell Hopkins
Yeah, thank you very much. First of all, I'm really happy to be a part of this conversation. I think on many levels, it's important for us to always try to bridge the the sound, as I say, between the mainland of Cape Cod and the islands of Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. So I'm happy to be representing the Island Voice to some degree in this conversation today.

00;07;00;23 - 00;07;30;27
Ewell Hopkins
What I want to turn people's attention to is so, so quickly. We have looked at, and I agree with the word, the term insurrection that took place at the Capitol. But I want us to think about the entirety of the day, what happened on that day to me, which I'll never forget, is that black and brown folks turned out and voted in Georgia and elected two Democratic senators, and we had a group of white folks protesting on the streets in the capital.

00;07;31;00 - 00;08;02;08
Ewell Hopkins
I think they both go together in terms of how upside down and how things are changing. What you're finding is that people who have traditionally been oppressed or suppressed are self advocating. They're turning out, they're voting, they're expressing their feelings. They're not spending time worrying about how they're being interpreted, but they're wrongly saying, this is where I'm coming from, and this is what I believe.

00;08;02;10 - 00;08;32;19
Ewell Hopkins
And I think that that is absolutely fearful to many segments of our society because we have successfully suppressed that voice. So many people have become complacent or submissive to survive. And the question now is, what has that got you generationally? And I believe the answer is not very far. So people are younger people, older people, all people are speaking out.

00;08;32;21 - 00;09;01;10
Ewell Hopkins
And yes, the urban centers of Georgia were surrounded by deep red votes. But the inner cities that for so often have not turned out turned out. And you saw what happened. And I believe that there was a direct relationship to that, to what happened at the Capitol, which was fear of what's happening across the country now, what the law enforcement did and didn't do at the Capitol.

00;09;01;13 - 00;09;20;21
Ewell Hopkins
There are others they can speak to that much better than I can. But what I can speak to is that people are rising up and are saying, we're not going to take it anymore, and our voice will be heard and our voice will be considered in the process of decision making. That's what happened to me on that Tuesday.

00;09;20;24 - 00;09;41;04
Onjale Scott Price
Absolutely. Several months ago now, we did a show we talked about specifically voter suppression. And I learned so much in that show, not even realizing like how much there was. And now that we've, I guess you could somewhat say, have overcome some of those challenges and overcome some of that oppression, it's amazing. The world of a difference that it makes.

00;09;41;04 - 00;10;06;29
Onjale Scott Price
It's, it's it's been incredible to to learn about and to watch. So, doctor Donna Jackson, I know you're a doctoral level clinical physician. I'm sorry, not physician psychologist. And you've also initiated a Alzheimer's support group here in Falmouth. So as a clinical psychologist, I'm very interested in, in what you think about the topic.

00;10;07;02 - 00;10;29;00
Donna Jackson
So it was interesting, and I'm really appreciate being invited to be on the panel to really force me to think about it a little bit further and, you know, put on my researcher hat a little bit and do a little more digging than I might have done on my own. So that made me think about it more from as a psychologist, just rather than as a citizen watching this unfold and trying to comprehend it.

00;10;29;00 - 00;10;52;03
Donna Jackson
And I didn't watch it in live time because I was working. So by the time I watched it, it had already kind of resolved enough that everybody was safe and things had moved forward. So there were a lot of things that happened just from a psychological perspective for everybody, people who watched that as it was unfolding versus like me watching it afterwards.

00;10;52;06 - 00;11;16;25
Donna Jackson
And it was clear that it was about race. In terms of how did why the but you can break it down and a whole bunch of different levels in terms of the response or the lack of, preparation, to actually provide some degree of security for, the, the building and the people in the building during this process.

00;11;16;28 - 00;11;50;11
Donna Jackson
And everybody I love the coverage afterwards where they asked people whether or not they thought it was about race or if people were treated differently and they did a better job talking about it in the moment that it was happening. Right afterwards, it was clear from all the images to everyone there's a race component. I do think, though, it's different than, is how we talk about race and racism versus like, caste, which Isabel Wilkerson did a great job thinking of caste.

00;11;50;13 - 00;12;25;14
Donna Jackson
I think that's what's at stake is a power shift or a perceived power shift, right? Of where do I fit in the pecking order, and what can people get away with that they used to get away with it. Hopefully they'll no longer be able to get away with and so it did make me go back to reread Parts of Caste again, to think about it a different way, and to think about what's happening to people who have, this sense of white superiority or that they have a entitlement.

00;12;25;14 - 00;12;47;28
Donna Jackson
The people who now are getting, call caught on social media, they're getting caught that they were there and that they took part in it, and then they're surprised they're getting in trouble. There's surprise that it's a felony offense, and they're appealing to be pardoned or to be taken care of. But they were just being did what they thought was right there.

00;12;47;28 - 00;13;30;22
Donna Jackson
The that to me was striking, but not surprising. It's just people really think that they can still get away. And that's my hope, is that people are going to have to start to look at that. There is this part about caste and the dominant group is has a threat response. Then we're going to see potentially violence or aggression or essentially power plays to put other people who they perceive should be in a subordinate position back in that position because their brains are literally going into a threat response.

00;13;30;24 - 00;14;01;14
Donna Jackson
And that happens with police, too, in terms of implicit bias. And they, you know, when they see someone, a dominant group member or even it's complicated with the police and I'm going to let other people talk about that. But, I think people we all have to start looking at what happened. I'm pleased to hear the conversations happening at a larger level sooner around looking at race as a part of that, unfolding of the what was an insurrection.

00;14;01;16 - 00;14;23;23
Donna Jackson
And I don't know what other people are calling it. I hope I'm not calling it a protest. I've definitely still seeing people refer to it as just a protest gone bad or or whatnot. Yeah. Something that you mentioned that I, I just find it, absolutely fascinating is the psychology of people thinking that they're this is this is fine.

00;14;23;23 - 00;14;35;10
Onjale Scott Price
I'm going to get away with this because this is actually the right thing to do. We could possibly talk about that later. I could go on about that, but rather I want I want to hear your thoughts.

00;14;35;12 - 00;15;18;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, far be it for me to come behind, Doctor Jackson and Troy Newell, I think, they've set the set the stage very well for the for the conversation, I would say, yeah. Everything that happens in this country and I mean, literally everything that happens in this country, race or maybe more explicitly, racism is part of it, to whatever social ill, whatever social conflict where you want to examine, race and racism are all components of that, which is one of the reasons we do this show.

00;15;18;23 - 00;15;49;27
Rev. Will Mebane
But specifically around, January 6th. Yeah, it was pretty obvious. I know when I first started watching it, and I did have a chance to watch a lot of it live. I kept thinking to myself, now, if those were black folks storming up the steps of the Capitol, there would have been a massacre. They would have been mowed down with assault weapons or whatever.

00;15;49;29 - 00;16;26;19
Rev. Will Mebane
The authorities had to deter them. That never would have been allowed to happen. Period. Just wind of apathy, right? And so when we look at the response to the Black Lives Matter protests, over the summer and how the authorities responded to that versus how they, repaired, prepared for a prepared for it, didn't prepare for, the attack, the insurrection, on January 6th that the difference is clear night.

00;16;26;24 - 00;17;08;15
Rev. Will Mebane
And I think it goes back even, truthfully, I think it goes back 400 years. I think this country, we in this country have still not dealt with the issue of race and racism. And and so it's always, there and it's always under the surface. So we've seen it bubble up closer to the surface in the last few years or so because racist, white supremacist white nationalists have been given permission to be more vocal, to be, more bodacious about, about their philosophy use around white supremacy and all.

00;17;08;17 - 00;17;37;09
Rev. Will Mebane
And I don't have any problem calling it an insurrection. I think it was domestic terrorism. And it was, more than a riot. And yeah, I'm still seeing not as many folks, referring it to referring to it as a, the protest of the protesters. But it was interesting. But watching the media, that day, as the reports were coming out, folks started calling it a protest.

00;17;37;09 - 00;18;25;27
Rev. Will Mebane
And then by, the evening by 8:00 or all, I think everybody on most of the, network news, channels, was referring to it as a riot or an insurrection. So language does matter. And then, and I guess the last thing I'll say, Andrew, before kicking it back to you, it's it. You know, some of this is hostility that we saw, goes back to the hatred that some in this country had and still have towards Barack Obama, Barack Obama's election as, an African-American to the presidency, was just too much for some people, just too much.

00;18;25;29 - 00;18;48;05
Rev. Will Mebane
And I believe it's only my theory that one of the reasons Hillary Clinton didn't win is because the racists that supremacists said, we ain't got a lot of the black person in the white House, and we ain't going to let a black sympathizer or a in lower, back in the white House know that will not happen.

00;18;48;07 - 00;18;59;14
Rev. Will Mebane
And so they got themselves organized and, able to, elect the now former president. So those are my my initial thoughts.

00;18;59;17 - 00;19;10;15
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Former president today was Biden's inauguration, which the sun was shining. It's been a beautiful day, a joy. I think you wanted to say something.

00;19;10;18 - 00;19;51;01
Troy Clarkson
Well, I think Reverend Will just encapsulated what many of us, are, are feeling and and what I've been thinking, and that is, the the issue, it was in stark reality for all of us on the South. But it represents, a multi-generational centuries old issue that, is only going to get solved if we continue to have conversations like this, and that, that people who have not been exposed, personally to, to the kind of blatant racism that still exists, are willing to talk about it and share their stories.

00;19;51;01 - 00;20;14;19
Troy Clarkson
I wrote, a little while ago about an event, that occurred in Falmouth, where I was at, a private, golf club at the as a guest of a friend and, one of my dearest friends who's a person of color. And I played golf with this friend of ours. And, after we played golf, we went into the locker room and washed up when we were coming out for dinner.

00;20;14;26 - 00;20;45;02
Troy Clarkson
And we were met by another person, long time resident of Falmouth, who saw me, and and we exchanged hellos. And I know him from being involved in politics and, and town and, and he was very pleasant. And then he turned to my friend and didn't say a word to him, didn't even acknowledge him, just sort of stared up and down and and then walked away and, at to be present for such blatant, overt racism blew me away.

00;20;45;05 - 00;21;09;20
Troy Clarkson
And my friend who's lived in Falmouth his whole life said, happens all the time. And until people, frankly, who look like me are willing to have those conversations and acknowledge that that exists in our own community and start doing something about it in our own community. Then the the sentiments, that led to that insurrection, are going to continue.

00;21;09;20 - 00;21;37;11
Troy Clarkson
And so I think what you guys are doing here is so critically important because I believe, that that that kind of racism is that trend is reversed. Community by community and relationship by relationship. And so it's so important to have those discussions and acknowledge and admit that, it's not someplace else. It's not, you know, south of the border, south of the Mason-Dixon right here.

00;21;37;17 - 00;21;43;26
Troy Clarkson
And our community, is where those problems exist and where we need to address them.

00;21;43;29 - 00;22;01;09
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, I recall reading. I think that might have been the first time I read Troy's take, and I. I told my husband I was like, oh, this is you got to read this. This is a good story because it truly encapsulates our lives. Just in a small snippet in the newspaper, you can see what it's like to be in this community sometimes.

00;22;01;11 - 00;22;31;27
Onjale Scott Price
And I know that we live in a more progressive community, and I, I feel comfortable having this show here where other places that I lived, I would not have felt at all comfortable. But it doesn't mean that we still don't have work to do and in a way to go. And so it's really important for us, like you said, to have these conversations, but to also look inward and see like, okay, what are we doing within our community to make it inclusive, to make it welcoming, or what are we not doing that we should be doing?

00;22;32;00 - 00;22;55;12
Onjale Scott Price
So I wanted to specifically ask, I know Greg touched on it a little bit about how there was definitely a stark difference in the way that the police responded, or lack of response, to what happened at the Capitol versus the Black Lives Matter protesters over the summer. And so I was I was very hopeful in the moment that this is it.

00;22;55;12 - 00;23;17;18
Onjale Scott Price
You can't you can't deny this. It is. I watched it not on the news, but on Twitter. You know, we're watching this unfold. Even if you watch it after, like there, it is obvious. And then on Martin Luther King Jr day, there were some peaceful protesters, and I thought it was an image from summer of 2020 until somebody said, this just happened on MLK day.

00;23;17;18 - 00;23;35;29
Onjale Scott Price
And so I was I was a bit frustrated that we just had this event that should have opened our eyes. And yet here we are, where I can't distinguish if this was yesterday or if this was last summer. So I just want to talk through what what do we what do we do? What do we need to do?

00;23;36;02 - 00;23;54;13
Onjale Scott Price
Because if we have such a stark, obvious example of the discrepancies of how white America and black and brown America is treated, what do we do? Where do we go from there?

00;23;54;15 - 00;24;24;11
Donna Jackson
So I think that's the pivotal question. And that's, and I hear actually, even in the responded some people on the street, the questions, whether or not, depending on whether you're in the dominant group based on how you're perceived, your skin color is perceived or your caste or you know, who's going to be involved in this is everyone has to be involved with it.

00;24;24;13 - 00;24;54;27
Donna Jackson
But it it has to reduce the fear for people to get involved without them being harmed at a disproportionate rate of being harmed. Black Americans, brown people of color, when they they risk a lot more harm and getting hurt than most white Americans. When you know they the dominant group gets involved, they don't run the same risk of getting harmed.

00;24;54;29 - 00;25;24;29
Donna Jackson
They have to be willing to run more risk and more people are. I think we saw that in the Black Lives Matter movement. More people were willing to put themselves on the line. But the reality is our country was the use of how slavery was used and how it continued to be justified. And all the way to Jim Crow and beyond was and there was an economic benefit to the dominant groups.

00;25;25;01 - 00;25;49;22
Donna Jackson
And I was looking at some of, Doctor King's even his. There was an article in U.S. magazine about as he developed his, thoughts and his how he was moving in the community and who supported him. Is he really at the end, right before the assassination where he was murdered, he was looking at there had to be economic equality.

00;25;49;22 - 00;26;13;24
Donna Jackson
It was distinct. It was intrinsically tied to racial equality. And that is always going to be a threat to the dominant group. And in our society in America, the dominant group is related to race. You're going to have is so and that's partly where the white superiority comes in. And people not wanting to see it about race, they are accept.

00;26;13;26 - 00;26;43;19
Donna Jackson
And I do think to think about of status to, you know, the example you're talking about on the golf course, it's about you don't have you can't come into this group. You're supposed to you belong in this pecking order. And psychologically when people come out of that, you're not in the order. You're you know where you're supposed to be, or they perceive they have something to lose by a shift in status.

00;26;43;22 - 00;27;05;28
Donna Jackson
People are going to have a threat response. And then when they have a threat response, they honestly are not thinking as clearly. They literally cannot use their frontal lobes to, engage in, kind of discourse or decision making in a more reasonable manner.

00;27;06;00 - 00;27;13;01
Rev. Will Mebane
Let me I think that's true, that I when I saw, you all, I saw you to look like you wanted to get in on this, so. Yeah. Come on in.

00;27;13;03 - 00;27;40;15
Ewell Hopkins
Yeah. I always with the zoom thing. You want to be respectful, not talking over people. I like this question because it highlights from my perspective. A very personal a personal situation and a personal set of questions. And I literally have to ask myself every day when you talk about how do you overcome this situation, first of all, I don't believe there's an ability to overcome race.

00;27;40;17 - 00;28;12;24
Ewell Hopkins
First of all, race is such a minuscule, insignificant thing if you're looking at it from a scientific perspective. I think we have to go beyond a human centric focus. And what I mean by that is, as long as we believe as humans, that we're the center of the conversation and everything radiates out from our reality, I think we're going to continuously find minuscule things like race to distinguish ourselves from one another.

00;28;12;26 - 00;28;50;26
Ewell Hopkins
What I believe we have to do is understand the implications of our relationship with the natural world within environmental justice. I don't believe you can separate racial justice and environmental justice. Because we as humans, if we cannot figure this thing out, the planet doesn't need us. It shows us that through viruses and other means, it shows us through the wonderful air quality we're having around the world now, where we're all sheltering in place.

00;28;50;29 - 00;29;14;29
Ewell Hopkins
The planet will survive. The planet, in my opinion, is giving us an opportunity to figure out if we as The Matrix, the movie that I love, one of my favorite pointed out by the end, we are the virus. We as humans, and if we continue to act like this is all about us, we will perish. So with that, that's not doom and gloom.

00;29;15;05 - 00;29;55;04
Ewell Hopkins
It is to say. Let us focus on what our impact is on the natural world, how we can work together as a species to play a more supportive and cooperative role. And how do we find common elements? So there's a of importance for leadership. And then I think there's a really important component called spirituality, not religion. Spiritual reality, where people find that inner balance, whether it be at the water's edge or in a cathedral, we have to become calm as individuals and we have to understand that it is a lot bigger.

00;29;55;04 - 00;30;34;07
Ewell Hopkins
It is a lot bigger than us. And if we can get to that level of thinking, that level of spirituality, that level of environmental awareness, that that level of non-human centric focus, I think we can survive on this planet if we're going to take things as minuscule as the level, melanin in your skin or your facial structure to define who we are and who we not, we're going to kill each other ultimately, because we're never going to get to a point where when you look different than me, that's okay.

00;30;34;09 - 00;31;04;13
Ewell Hopkins
But we can get to the point, in my opinion, of saying that if we don't understand the greater cosmos, we're all going to perish together. So my focus, my focus as a politician, my focus as a community activist, my focus as a chair of the planning board is to look at the human impact Act on nature and our relationship with the natural world, and try to find common and bond.

00;31;04;16 - 00;31;29;24
Ewell Hopkins
Because I can sit down with an Eastern European descent individual and talk about the effects of microplastics and be on an even par, I can never get on the same par. Their history, their relationship and my history and my relationship. But we can all agree, hopefully, if we can embrace science, that there's certain things that will kill us if we don't address them.

00;31;29;26 - 00;31;46;07
Ewell Hopkins
So that's that's kind of my little soapbox of where we go forward. We go forward as a species, understanding the impact that we have and are affected by from the natural world.

00;31;46;09 - 00;32;14;22
Rev. Will Mebane
Several of you, thank you for that. You all, and you speak in my language, when you're talking about spirituality. Even though I'm a priest, in the Episcopal Church and, part of the religious establishment, I think it really is all about spirituality. Religion is just a way of expressing one's spirituality. And maybe we should do a show about that about one day, Andrew.

00;32;14;22 - 00;32;46;14
Rev. Will Mebane
But, a couple of you mentioned Martin Luther King, and I wanted to, to think about that because I had a chance to preach a couple of sermons, and on Martin Luther King weekend here recently, and I went back and I, reread a number of his speeches, listened to a couple of sermons. It's my tradition every MLK Monday to a read or listen to, the reading of the letter from, Birmingham Jail.

00;32;46;16 - 00;33;12;23
Rev. Will Mebane
And one of the things, and you just said you all that reminded me of Doctor King is, is that, you know, we we have to find a way to live together. Sisters and brothers all perished as fools, right? That sort of the, so the ultimate objective, but I do wonder if it's in, if it's in within human nature.

00;33;12;25 - 00;33;33;15
Rev. Will Mebane
If it's in within the in human ability to not, oppress and suppress and denigrate, others who are, who are human. So it's just a question I wrestle with. Go ahead. Donna. Yeah, yeah.

00;33;33;17 - 00;33;59;20
Ewell Hopkins
I don't want to dominate the conversation, but to me, that is a very clear answer, that it's not possible for us to overcome that. And that's why I say unless there is a force greater that we can acknowledge is greater. Our future is bleak, because I think we've demonstrated through, through history that we'll find minuscule things to distinguish ourselves from one another.

00;33;59;20 - 00;34;24;00
Ewell Hopkins
And then we'll use those as points of riff, and we'll use that as a points of divide, and we can find little balances of harmony to come together. But we we can find difference. Look, I say, when you go to the Middle East and you bring in, you bring a Palestinian and a Jew together. They have to talk to each other first to realize their difference.

00;34;24;00 - 00;34;56;28
Ewell Hopkins
Because they look the same. But then they still have this, this historical fear of one another. And that shows me that the human species is always going to find something to distinguish it. Gender. We haven't talked about gender at all, but the gender war and the fluidity of, of gender and how we can handle that, that we want to make, a spectrum, a binary, we are going to continue down that path until we acknowledge that there's something greater than us.

00;34;56;28 - 00;35;24;13
Ewell Hopkins
And that's why I think religion can be very constructive, because it's all about bigger than who you are. So I believe it's the natural, the natural world. I believe it's the environment. I believe that we living on the Cape and Islands and are so blessed to be so close to the magnificent ness of nature, should be what calms us all, and what causes us all to try to figure out how to live in harmony.

00;35;24;19 - 00;35;45;17
Ewell Hopkins
Because if we destroy our water sources, we're all in trouble. You know, it doesn't matter how much have. I guess if you have enough, you can buy bottled water for a while. But that's not a sustainable model, right? It always comes back. It comes back to mercy. Mercy me from Marvin Gaye. It's all about the environment.

00;35;45;19 - 00;36;15;14
Rev. Will Mebane
That was a prophetic, prophetic music, from Marvin in the 70s there. So I'm going to make one of the comment I want to hear what Donna and Troy have to say. And about this portion of the conversation. So just one other quote from Martin. They just came to mind. So Martin said, we, human beings fear one another and we fear one another because we don't know one another, and we don't know one another because we don't communicate with one another.

00;36;15;17 - 00;36;27;16
Rev. Will Mebane
So to your point, you know that we have got to, communicate with one another. But I told us all, Donna, I think trying to get out and see what Troy has to say as well.

00;36;27;19 - 00;36;49;16
Donna Jackson
So the idea of, like, threat, I do think people need to know a little more about how the human brain works and that we're part of, of mammals. We're, you know, we're warm blooded. We're very are. The thing that actually distinguishes us the most isn't symbolic language and isn't a lot of things about what makes us human.

00;36;49;16 - 00;37;17;26
Donna Jackson
That's a big question. But, it's how social we are. We are so social. So that can both work for us and against us. Right? But it's around I feeling a sense of needing to belong. And also, if there's a threat, what happens? So our brains are wired to perceive threats and, and then what happens from that.

00;37;17;26 - 00;37;39;21
Donna Jackson
And, I think things are moving along. I think that information will be available, you know, more readily. And people understand it around what, when. And that's when we have racism. And you have you have a threat response and there's a loss of status. So all those things come together like I if there's a greater threat, could we come together.

00;37;39;21 - 00;38;17;10
Donna Jackson
So if you know we're a global community now, we're not just it's not just America, democracy, racism in America. This is you know, we were watched on a global scale. What happened, you know, in the last, few months here. And actually, I was surprised other people understood our process better than a lot of Americans. You know, in terms of the Electoral College and the confusion around that and what was going to happen and, I do think that it does, you know, it does help to have conversations.

00;38;17;13 - 00;38;40;12
Donna Jackson
And that's where we're headed next with the next piece that we're talking about is how are we going to talk to each other? And how are we going to literally realize that your survival is only going to work if my survival works, too, like we're in this together, and that we depend on each other in a way that there is no working around it anymore.

00;38;40;15 - 00;39;01;01
Donna Jackson
There is no other, place to go. There is no. And this is it. And you can see in times when there is a greater threat, we have come together. We have been able to not be so caught up in a lot of this stuff around status and ego and, you know, who has more and, you know, all that stuff.

00;39;01;01 - 00;39;23;22
Donna Jackson
We have been able to come together when there's a greater threat, when there's no greater threat. We're really good at seeing threats in one another and then trying to position ourselves to be in a more secure place where I'm minimizing. I'm feeling better about me. You might be feeling worse about you, but as long as I'm feeling better about me, then I'm not going to worry.

00;39;23;24 - 00;40;06;11
Donna Jackson
I'm not so invested to worry about that. And so I do, you know, see, we have a a long road ahead in terms of like, can we afford to hope? Right? Can we afford to think we're going to be able to start to do what we need to do? And I do think that democracy and capitalism have become so entwined that that if our, how our economy is going, you know, is going to impact people are very invested in maintaining a capitalistic economic platform.

00;40;06;13 - 00;40;34;02
Donna Jackson
If you they do surveys on where are the happiest places to live in the world? They tend to be Denmark and Norway and Switzerland, which are all a little bit more ethnically homogeneous as well. They're not quite as, ethnically racially diverse. But they also operate on a different economic platform. And so their sense of well-being, everybody feels taken care of.

00;40;34;05 - 00;40;57;12
Donna Jackson
Your health care, your, retirement, your everything, like your food, your house, you're you're taking care of all your basic needs are met. You know, your neighbors are going to, you know, there's no threat. Your neighbor's going to get the same thing you are, you know, even if you make more money than they do, there's no threat to one another.

00;40;57;14 - 00;41;11;25
Donna Jackson
You know, we've created a lot of the threats that we have, and we have the tools to get rid of those threats, but we just haven't done it. Fascinating. To me.

00;41;11;25 - 00;41;41;20
Troy Clarkson
It's actually I do I saw many I, I think I believe, Dan is absolutely correct. And I think we all know this intuitively that, the, the racial strife in our nation is so inextricably linked with the income inequality, and, the, those issues. So that really dare we hope that things can get better.

00;41;41;20 - 00;42;10;01
Troy Clarkson
And I'm an eternal optimist. And I think the answer is yes. And it lies in what Will was talking about, a minute ago. And because I take things to their most basic level, and our ability to survive as a community or as a people, I think hinges on our ability to change the way we relate to one another.

00;42;10;03 - 00;42;55;19
Troy Clarkson
The young man, his name was Ethan. In the videos that we all watched before, before the show, he said something very simple, but very profound. And, and so here's a young person, who's living in the middle of all this, and said, what we really need to do is listen to one another. And one of the destructive components, of living in a society with pervasive social media is that it has significantly reduced our ability or willingness, perhaps, to listen to one another and, and, you know, we even based on, you know, what, who's on our Twitter feed and who's on our Facebook, we, we we have placed ourselves in

00;42;55;19 - 00;43;16;26
Troy Clarkson
these echo chambers where we only hear things that are aligned with our own belief systems. And what Ethan said is we really need to sit down. If you're liberal, you need to sit down and have a conversation with a conservative. You know, if then and the other way around and, you know, I think that it sounds simplistic, but I do believe it's profound.

00;43;16;26 - 00;43;56;26
Troy Clarkson
And the solution lies in that, in understanding, how not only what people think, but how they think. You know, why was there such an incredible lack of understanding of how our electoral system works? And so I think those are, the those could be the beginnings of solutions for us. And, and I really, truly believe that those conversations, start with, with conversations like this, when we are willing, to understand, that everybody doesn't have to think exactly like we do.

00;43;56;26 - 00;44;30;22
Troy Clarkson
But perhaps if we take the time to listen to people with divergent views, that doesn't mean we have to validate them. It doesn't mean we have to, agree with them. We don't even have to say that it's okay, but giving someone at least the the ability to be heard, and I think a lot of the strife that exists right now, have their basis in people who don't believe that their grievances have been heard or addressed, whether they're real or imagined.

00;44;30;25 - 00;45;07;07
Troy Clarkson
And, and we have the ability to, to change that one more quick thing because I this I running a thread running through, what we've been saying as it relates to disparities and policing and spirituality, so much of, the issues, that our current law enforcement establishment deals with, 70 to 80% of calls. And that's a real statistic that, have a direct link to mental illness and addiction.

00;45;07;09 - 00;45;39;25
Troy Clarkson
And I think we're going to have a real call, a conversation about race in our nation and law enforcement. And we have to acknowledge that until we address those issues, those core issues, we're not going to make a lot of progress, you know, and, and, and that complicates our discussion today a little bit. But I think it's important that we have that as a component, of at least and understanding of what the the challenges are before us.

00;45;39;27 - 00;45;42;01
Troy Clarkson
Yeah. I also.

00;45;42;03 - 00;45;44;06
Onjale Scott Price
Oh, sorry. I've been back.

00;45;44;09 - 00;45;45;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Troy. Where you. Yes.

00;45;45;22 - 00;46;07;08
Ewell Hopkins
I just wanted to say one. You know, I know we're talking to the moderators here, but I wanted to say one thing back to your comments that I think is a great example of how we've had a, a breakdown in communication when you quoted that percentage of, domestic calls by law enforcement, you were making the argument for defund the police.

00;46;07;10 - 00;46;44;06
Ewell Hopkins
You were making the argument that we've put too much money into policing and not enough into social services. Unfortunately, what so many people heard when they heard defund the police were deemphasize the importance of the police, the police shouldn't exist, etc., etc. they heard a negative, they didn't hear a positive. And the problem was defund the police was a very positive message that was delivered in a very negative way because we need to put more money into social services, in human health and human health care, and not into the militarization of our communities.

00;46;44;08 - 00;47;08;08
Ewell Hopkins
And that is a lightning rod of a political conversation. Even here on the vineyard, we've talked about the fact that we have resource officers in our high schools and we don't have enough counselors. It's these are tough questions. And I agree with Donna wholeheartedly. A common threat will pull us together without it will go at each other.

00;47;08;10 - 00;47;14;08
Ewell Hopkins
I think to me, I don't have any belief in anything else.

00;47;14;11 - 00;47;48;15
Troy Clarkson
You will, I, I, I intentionally didn't use that phrase because I, again, as I started out our visit together saying that I have supervised police agencies at my last community where I work, I was actually a civilian police commissioner, and I agree with you that that phrase did a disservice to the conversation we need to have, and that is what would have been the difference, if that young man that was shot to death in the Wendy's parking lot guilty of being under the influence, of, controlled substance, right.

00;47;48;15 - 00;48;08;00
Troy Clarkson
That was his only offense other than being a person of color. What would have been different if the person responding to that call, was an addiction counselor rather than a law enforcement officer who may or may not have been trained on, how to respond to to a person with addiction. Is someone in recovery that resonates with me very strongly.

00;48;08;00 - 00;48;31;02
Troy Clarkson
So I think you're right. The language that was used did a tremendous disservice to a very important public policy issue. And that is just in the time that I've been in positions of leadership in government over the last 25 years, the job of law enforcement has changed profoundly. And and we have we've equipped our law enforcement, men and women with, with physical tools.

00;48;31;02 - 00;48;55;19
Troy Clarkson
Right. You're right. You know, the vests and weapons, we haven't equipped them with the understanding, of what it means, to be living with, substance use disorder. I will say, since this is a felony show, and I know you've had chief down on the show, communities like Falmouth have been far more responsive to that than others.

00;48;55;19 - 00;49;24;12
Troy Clarkson
And understand that when you partner with agencies like Gosnell that, they can provide those services. You really providing a public service, but that, that, that that dynamic needs to be part of our conversation because look at the local court report, that's published in the enterprise every week. How many of those calls are unrelated to someone suffering from mental illness or living with a substance use disorder?

00;49;24;12 - 00;49;38;23
Troy Clarkson
And it's it's almost none of them. And so, that how we provide public services as public servants, I think will determine the progress that we make in the next decade or so.

00;49;38;26 - 00;49;40;19
Ewell Hopkins
You're here.

00;49;40;22 - 00;50;01;26
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, we plan to we haven't had Chief Dunn on this show. We have. We had another show with Chief Dunn and, and you and I and the other producers and Deborah Rogers and Allen Russell have been talking about doing a show around defund the police and or what have you. So, that will be an upcoming show, but we're going to be running out of time soon.

00;50;01;26 - 00;50;21;03
Rev. Will Mebane
And I want to make sure we get a chance to hear what our people on the street had to say about what do we do about, overcoming the deep divisions. And we've already been talking about it. And, reference was made already to to what even the had to say, about needing to listen to one another.

00;50;21;03 - 00;50;37;20
Rev. Will Mebane
So why don't we, listen now to what our folks on the street have to say about how we can overcome these deep divisions.

00;50;37;23 - 00;51;01;15
Gina Brown
First and foremost, I think we have to kind of come away from the kumbaya, expectation that we're all just going to one day love and live together in harmony. That ain't going to happen. Equality. I do not see it happening in my lifetime, in America or anywhere else. It's just not what looks like it. Look, I don't think that's all human, that what human nature is in 2021.

00;51;01;15 - 00;51;14;09
Gina Brown
I'm sorry. Sorry. Now, that doesn't mean I have no faith in humanity. I do, but in order to change this, I think first we're going to have to accept you're not going to get everybody. There are going to be angry people.

00;51;14;15 - 00;51;34;12
Ethan Peal
If you say you're a Republican, they want to yell at you. They don't want to listen to why they won't want to listen to any reason. Because in anybody's mind, the opposite side is just wrong. You can't learn anything from the opposite side because they're just wrong. It's either you or them. There's no way that anyone really feels the need to, like, talk it out.

00;51;34;15 - 00;51;37;27
Ethan Peal
Nobody wants to just sit down and have the conversation.

00;51;37;29 - 00;51;39;27
Ken Armstead
Solutions are going to be.

00;51;40;00 - 00;51;43;25
Ken Armstead
You know, and I let let me not be disheartening.

00;51;43;25 - 00;51;45;10
Ken Armstead
And in that, I think.

00;51;45;12 - 00;51;54;28
Ken Armstead
Most Americans and most people in general are extremely generous. And, they are,

00;51;55;01 - 00;52;16;18
Ken Armstead
Efforts to, help one another. But, I don't know that at sort of the margins and in the tails of the distribution, whether there will not there will always be that faction. There will always be those that have not been.

00;52;16;20 - 00;52;19;14
Ken Armstead
Directed or.

00;52;19;16 - 00;52;21;11
Ken Armstead
Understanding.

00;52;21;14 - 00;52;22;23
Ken Armstead
In the sense of.

00;52;22;25 - 00;52;24;08
Ken Armstead
You know, walking in someone else's.

00;52;24;08 - 00;52;45;15
Paul Rifkin
Shoes. So what I think we need to do as a people is to see each other as, as bonded rather than as separate. And how do we do that? Well, there's a lot of ways to do it. I, I learned some of it through meditation, a lot of it through life experience.

00;52;45;18 - 00;52;49;23
Paul Rifkin
Things are going on now that bring me hope. But Fiona.

00;52;49;23 - 00;52;59;01
Paul Rifkin
Jensen is brought to Cape Cod schools with mindfulness training for kids, which allows them to just sit together quietly.

00;52;59;03 - 00;53;00;19
Paul Rifkin
And not have to like, be.

00;53;00;19 - 00;53;04;23
Paul Rifkin
Jarringly ego bouncing off each other.

00;53;04;25 - 00;53;07;28
Paul Rifkin
Find commonality.

00;53;08;00 - 00;53;10;15
Paul Rifkin
That's a wonderful thing.

00;53;10;18 - 00;53;30;12
Onjale Scott Price
So we just heard from our people on the street their thoughts on how we overcome these deep divisions. And it's come up already that we need to have conversations with people who differ from us. I will say the comment, I think, Troy, you made about social media living, living in our bubble, it's very easy to be on social media and see something that you disagree with.

00;53;30;12 - 00;53;51;09
Onjale Scott Price
And you you can report somebody, you can block them or you can just ship, ignore them. And I do really think that especially people in my generation, maybe a little bit younger, are having a difficult time communicating because they spend so much time on social media and they're so accustomed to just leaving a conversation and not having to have those conversations.

00;53;51;11 - 00;54;13;29
Onjale Scott Price
But I will say, I do think this conversation specifically about what happened around the Capitol is, is a bit more difficult. So the day that this happened, January 6th, we were actually supposed to have a meeting about the this show of the conversation. So we all seemingly reluctantly got on to the zoom. And and Reverend Will was visibly upset.

00;54;13;29 - 00;54;36;17
Onjale Scott Price
And Allen and, Deb and I were all also probably visibly upset. And we just did we didn't have a meeting. We were just like, we, we can't do this today. We've got to come back. And after we deal with our anger. And one thing that I talked to Reverend Will about was we literally have this show to have conversations, and I don't want to talk to anybody right now.

00;54;36;17 - 00;55;02;05
Onjale Scott Price
I don't want to talk to anyone from the other side of the aisle or anybody with differing views. Right now. I just can't do it. And so we've definitely, you know, taken some time to look inward and go out in nature and, and, and deal with that. But when you have someone who is on the opposite side, so to say, or you think that someone is wrong, how do you have those conversations?

00;55;02;05 - 00;55;19;20
Onjale Scott Price
Where do you where do you even start? And I know it's come up, just before the break, we were talking about, you know, how you say things is important defund the police in the way that it was presented, essentially disbarred most of the conversation that people are willing to have about it. So how do we do that differently here?

00;55;19;20 - 00;55;43;16
Onjale Scott Price
How do we start the conversation in a productive way and not alienate the people that we're trying to have a conversation with, not open that up to anybody? Dana. So I think what you all did with taking it, time to to deal with your feelings about what you saw and take a break and then re come back together is an important part.

00;55;43;19 - 00;56;15;14
Donna Jackson
We do have to acknowledge that are weird how we're feeling about things, but when our feelings are really intense or strong, it's going to be harder for us to have a kind of conversation where we can really hear the other person and not be. So, honestly, it's just a brain thing. Again, it's just a brain thing. Your limbic system needs to dial down a little so that your frontal lobes can come online, and then your all of your executive functions are available to you.

00;56;15;17 - 00;56;35;14
Donna Jackson
And one of the things you have to be able to do when you're listening to someone, so say someone is. The other thing is that you probably don't go into the conversation thinking, I'm right. You're wrong, and eventually you're going to see that, you know, that's probably not the best way to try to have a conversation is to you're going to convince the other person you don't want them to do that to you.

00;56;35;14 - 00;56;53;21
Donna Jackson
So why would you do that to them? Like they have a right to their opinion. You don't have to agree with it. Someone said early, you don't have to validate it. But if we really want to hear it out, the only way, if someone really believes something, I found out something else. When thinking up coming on the show is there's something called a proof of assertion.

00;56;53;21 - 00;57;30;13
Donna Jackson
Has anyone ever heard of that thing? So this is the other thing. I'm like, why do we know this? It's all out there. This is the beauty of social. Like it's all online. You just proof of assertion is, part of, like, a, you know, they call it's this, if you say something repeatedly and restate it regardless of its accuracy and regardless of someone contradicting it, it will be believed by other people in the room where just recently we had the proof of assertion, proof of repeated assertion, repeat repetition as proof.

00;57;30;15 - 00;58;02;17
Donna Jackson
And it's extreme form is actually a form of brainwashing. You just keep repeating it, repeating it, and eventually someone starts to not believe their own reality. Or they think, well, they said it enough and there's no proof that it's not true, right? So then maybe it is true. So people who've been pulled into this ideology or into this way of thinking, like if you really want to help them to maybe look at their beliefs, you have to get them to look at their beliefs, right?

00;58;02;17 - 00;58;24;13
Donna Jackson
You can't put them in a threat response where they experience you as trying to convince them that they're wrong. You have to help them. Like, how do you believe that? What is it that you know? Not just what is it that you heard someone else say? What is your experience? How do you know that to be true? And why is it important to you?

00;58;24;16 - 00;58;47;23
Donna Jackson
I and and then, you know, it's hard to listen to. I think the other thing is you have to be ready. That might be hard for you to hear what they have to say in response. That. But they have to figure out what do they even know what they believe and why do they believe it? And what purpose does that serve for them?

00;58;47;25 - 00;58;53;16
Donna Jackson
And then then they might listen to what you have to say, right.

00;58;53;18 - 00;59;26;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. One of my favorite theologians is, Martin Buber. The Jewish, theologian and, you know, he talked he had the philosophy of the ideal, philosophy and all. But one of the things he said is that when there is, Miss communication or a missed meeting, I think is how he described it between two individuals, it's incumbent upon or both individuals to try to see, through the eyes of the other person that you literally sort of, you know, maybe not literally, but figuratively.

00;59;26;29 - 00;59;53;04
Rev. Will Mebane
Pull yourself up next to them side by side, and you try to see what it is they're seeing, what what is they're seeing that I'm not able to see. And then they do the same with you. They pull themselves up beside you and they try to see through your eyes. I have to admit to failing of that more often than being successful, I hope, because I do want to convince people, and I do think I'm right.

00;59;53;04 - 01;00;25;23
Rev. Will Mebane
And and I've got the Bible on my side. But, but, but I think what you're saying is so right now. But here's the thing. And then I'll, I'll, I'll hear what others say. So for me, though, one of the narratives that came out after the 2016 election was, the reason the former president was elected is because, people weren't listening to, other folks.

01;00;25;26 - 01;00;55;17
Rev. Will Mebane
They weren't paying attention to their pain, their sufferings, their frustrations or whatever you, And that didn't sit well with me at the time. And I have to tell you, it still doesn't sit well with me, because I think a lot of us were listening. A lot of us were listening, but they were, able, unwilling to maybe see another option.

01;00;55;19 - 01;01;18;16
Rev. Will Mebane
And maybe this what did you call it? The proof of assertion. And we saw that for four years or longer. I just keep saying something, keep saying something, keep saying something, keep saying something. Finally, people say, oh, that's true, right? In a way so that that, I hope that for anyone to to comment on or whatever else you may be thinking about in terms of how we overcome these deep divisions.

01;01;18;18 - 01;01;52;03
Troy Clarkson
Well, well, I think you just set the stage for, for part of the solution. I have this conversation with my kids often because we become so polarized and neither of my, two adult daughters have been very political, despite the fact that their dad was, in politics for a long time. But our recent, societal, happenings have have caused them to be more politically aware, but caused them to be more politically aware in that they now are they create lists, right, of people that don't believe what they believe.

01;01;52;03 - 01;02;17;09
Troy Clarkson
So the people are they're on the bad list, right. And, and and they're not alone. And what I try to tell them and what I would suggest is a way, for us to begin to have those conversations with people with whom we disagree is to ask a central question. And that is, what do you value more, being right or having a relationship with this person and and and mental.

01;02;17;10 - 01;02;39;08
Troy Clarkson
That's what I say to my kids. You know, they, you know, people that are colleagues or other family members that that don't believe what they believe. And so they just put them on the list and try to sabotage. And my kids aren't alone. So many people have done that. And in our polarized, you know, echo chambers society.

01;02;39;11 - 01;02;58;22
Troy Clarkson
And so that's the question we need to ask. What do we value more being right or having a relationship? And remember that longitudinal study that Harvard University did 70 years ago, where they spent a lot of time and a lot of money trying to figure out the secret to longevity and happiness? And what did they find out? It's not, you know, diet and exercise.

01;02;58;22 - 01;03;22;07
Troy Clarkson
It's not your gene pool, but it's your ability to forge and maintain meaningful relationships. So what's at stake here is not only our ability, to move forward, but it's our ability. Our very ability to survive depends on our ability to get along with one another, to value one another. And I think that's that's the lesson and that's the solution to do what ails us.

01;03;22;15 - 01;03;44;03
Troy Clarkson
It's what Will said. Seeing ourselves through someone else. And maybe we're not aligned with every belief that they have. What are we aligned with their values and and are they someone with whom we want to have a relationship? If so, then that opens the door for patience and tolerance. And you know, maybe what I do is that, say, the Serenity Prayer several times a day.

01;03;44;06 - 01;03;48;03
Onjale Scott Price
Also sounds like very good marriage advice.

01;03;48;05 - 01;03;52;06
Troy Clarkson
Yes, indeed. Yes indeed. Absolutely.

01;03;52;08 - 01;04;19;26
Donna Jackson
It touched on what you said earlier, though. Some really, you know, human beings by their nature, you know, this is not our species has, had struggled with this since we've been on the planet. Right. Are we going to cooperate or are we going to compete? And someone else said that on another show. And that's we do really well when we cooperate.

01;04;19;28 - 01;04;58;17
Donna Jackson
Until we think there's scarcity and when there's scarcity and someone has to go win versus without, all of us want to be going with, we want to make sure we're not on the scarce, the short stick. But that's not the culture you set up. And so I do think, you know, the next generation coming in, is going to have to find other ways to have these conversations where we don't, it doesn't end up being all about the competition and violence.

01;04;58;19 - 01;05;24;05
Donna Jackson
That being said, there are people who don't care and they don't care about having that conversation, and they care more about having the stuff that they think. Not only do they need to have it, but that they are entitled to have it, and you're not going to have it as a result. And there may lack the empathy. They don't really care about coming in, seeing it from your point of view.

01;05;24;07 - 01;05;45;20
Donna Jackson
And if they lack that empathy, then you have to protect yourselves and you have to protect you do have to come together around, you know, empathy is a learned skill, and it's a willingness if people aren't willing to do that and are they haven't learned how to do it, or they don't value doing that, or if they same thing with the planet.

01;05;45;23 - 01;05;55;18
Donna Jackson
You know, science is you can say it's not true or you can say, you know, you can say a lot of things. Yes.

01;05;55;20 - 01;06;15;26
Rev. Will Mebane
But yeah, you know, Donna and we're about out of time, and I want to give you all a chance to offer again. But but your comment just reminded me of something, and it follows. What, Troy was saying. Also, if I when I think back of you talking about relationships and what do you value? Do you value the relationship or are you the value being right?

01;06;15;27 - 01;06;43;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. So after the 2016 election, right. The next morning I had a phone conversation with a friend. And 24 years we have been friends, close friends, golfing partners, socialites, families together, really close, Republican, that family and, and so we're talking to and the morning after, the the president was elected in 2016, I said, I'm really worried.

01;06;43;19 - 01;07;04;25
Rev. Will Mebane
And, and, I was it was. And so what are you worried about? I said, I'm afraid. I'm afraid we're moving towards the possibility of violence against black and brown people in this country. I say I'm afraid for my science or my adult sons. And I said, frankly, I'm afraid for myself. And I'm afraid we might be headed to a race war in this country.

01;07;04;25 - 01;07;31;17
Rev. Will Mebane
So this is in 2016. And the response I got back was, hey, we endured eight years of Obama. You can endure eight years of Trump. And I thought, wow, you didn't hear anything about what I just said about the threat that I felt for my own life and the life of my my sons and other black and brown people.

01;07;31;20 - 01;07;45;21
Rev. Will Mebane
And that was the end of a broken show. There's been no communication since then. There was no empathy from the other side. So y'all let me give you a chance. And we're going to, unfortunately, have to wrap our show.

01;07;45;23 - 01;08;36;28
Ewell Hopkins
All right. How do I respond? We just open it up and put it out. I mean Amen, brother. Two things that I want to leave with that I think is so critical to this question is, the importance of creating sacred space that everyone is welcome into and expert facilitation, because when I heard Donna speaking to all of the work that one side of a conversation might have to make, I thought about how wonderful it is to be invited into conversation with norms, with the facilitator that is taking you through a process, or going to a common place of value, spiritually or not, where you create that sacred bond beyond all of which

01;08;36;28 - 01;09;02;20
Ewell Hopkins
you will discuss, that you then enter into. We have to, in a purposeful way, create situations like this conversation. I consider this conversation a sacred space. I feel safe here, I feel heard, and I feel as though I respect all that is being given to me. But it didn't just happen. We didn't just run into each other on the street and get on zoom and have a conversation.

01;09;02;22 - 01;09;29;26
Ewell Hopkins
We had people that we trusted that asked us to come together. So I think the more we can create situations, intentional situations with the attempt of having that harmony, having that sacredness to it. To me, that's the answer to your initial question. How do we how do we move forward, purposefully, in structured ways with expertise that is experienced.

01;09;29;29 - 01;09;56;13
Ewell Hopkins
And when Troy, referenced, reciting a prayer multiple times a day, my heart, my heart felt so positive for him. That's his secret weapon. That's beautiful. That that makes him more of a human being to do that. I meditate every day that that's what that I work on. Because if I. I'm no good if I don't. So I think we all have to find those things.

01;09;56;19 - 01;10;04;19
Ewell Hopkins
And if we do those, we have so much more to offer everyone else. But we start by offering it to ourselves that that's what I leave you with.

01;10;04;22 - 01;10;33;17
Onjale Scott Price
That is a beautiful ending to this wonderful conversation. Thank you, y'all, and Donna and Troy and Rev's always. I really hope that those who watch this feel a sense of unity and that they have found some ways, learned some ways to move forward, because this is still while we had some celebrations today with Joe Biden's inauguration, we still have much work to do, especially when it comes to bringing people together.

01;10;33;19 - 01;10;40;17
Onjale Scott Price
So thank you all. Thank you, Alan and David, FCTV and we look forward to seeing you the next time.

01;10;40;17 - 01;10;50;28