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Unknown

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Unknown

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Rev. Will Mebane
Hello, friends. Welcome once again to the conversation here on FCC TV. We are delighted that you have chosen to join. My co-host, Angela Scott Price and me for another interesting discussion around issues of race and racism. And this show is very timely and that we are going to be talking about disparities, racial disparities in the delivery of medicine, health care to black and brown people.

00;01;11;09 - 00;01;42;21
Rev. Will Mebane
It's particularly timely because we are now seeing the beginning of dissemination of the vaccines for the Covid 19 infection, and there are all kinds of questions about how black and brown people will if they will participate in the vaccine, receiving the vaccine or not, as well as some other issues. So we asked a couple of people on the street, but they actually were at home.

00;01;42;21 - 00;02;06;29
Rev. Will Mebane
But we asked them, a couple of questions, and one of them is, where do you see where do you see racial disparities in health care in regards to black and brown people? So let's see what they had to say.

00;02;07;01 - 00;02;37;27
Paul Courtney
Right. So I think there's two parts to that question that I was thinking about. One is sort of geographically, and the other one is what I would term and I'm not the creator of this term by any means, but sort of what the patient journey is. So, I think where geographically, it's really everywhere. I mean, racial disparities, take place, whether it's in rural areas of the country or in urban areas.

00;02;37;29 - 00;03;03;24
Paul Courtney
And it's really a result of the, I guess, the, the stratification of, access to, to real estate, really, you know, since the Jim Crow laws and, beyond that and redlining locally, you know, in Boston. So you are able to have segregation, that persists long after the actual laws that created that in the first place.

00;03;03;24 - 00;03;24;00
Paul Courtney
And certainly on the Cape. It's even magnified, I would say, because if you don't have good access to transportation and you're, you know, you're trying to get to, the local hospital where, you know, whether it's in Hyannis or in Belmont, you know, hopping on the bus for that is, you know, means you're taking enormous amount of time every day.

00;03;24;02 - 00;03;30;21
Paul Courtney
And, if you're already struggling with, either health issues or financial issues, then that is just a huge challenge.

00;03;30;21 - 00;04;11;05
Marie Younger Blackburn
So we see it, really prevalently right now during this pandemic where, African American people are dying at, a rate of, of three times, you know, more than, other races. We also we see it and not particularly any fault of our own, being African American people, but, due to, circumstances like, access to affordable health care access, you know, housing situations, you know, the workplace.

00;04;11;06 - 00;04;11;25
Marie Younger Blackburn

00;04;11;27 - 00;04;48;14
Paul Courtney
So if you want to even pursue something because you think is important, having that access becomes very difficult. And then just in general within the health care, organization, I guess, you know, there are there have been studies showing that, for instance, pain management is deprioritized for, for black, patients, compared with white patients that if you're feeling pain as a white person, then more likely you get, tools to help you manage it, whether it's drugs or anything else.

00;04;48;17 - 00;04;56;17
Paul Courtney
Whereas if you are not white, then, those tools are not, made available for whatever reason.

00;04;56;20 - 00;04;58;04
Marie Younger Blackburn
I think there's also.

00;04;58;06 - 00;05;07;13
Marie Younger Blackburn
A trust issue, within our community that, questions.

00;05;07;15 - 00;05;10;22
Marie Younger Blackburn
The level of health care that we're given as well.

00;05;10;25 - 00;05;31;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Welcome back to the conversation. As you just heard from the individuals offering their opinions, we are addressing the issue of racial disparities in medicine, health care delivery. And we have a very distinguished, group of folks to join us.

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Joseph Burns

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Rev. Will Mebane
The conversation. And, I want to do a brief introduction of them, but we will hear a little bit more from them as we move through the programs. First, Joe Burns is a freelance journalist, who writes about health and health care and health insurance. He has written for a number of publications, including The New York Times, Medical Economics magazine, Manage Health Care, Executive.

00;06;03;14 - 00;06;43;20
Rev. Will Mebane
And he has covered the issue of health care since 1991. So he obviously has seen and heard and thought a lot about this question. Also with us tonight is, David Hufford, my PhD, affiliated with Penn State College of Medicine, living in Pennsylvania now. He is a professor emeritus and now retired. But, still, has individuals under his tutelage and his specialty has been in family medicine and psychiatry.

00;06;43;22 - 00;07;15;11
Rev. Will Mebane
And, he served as professor of behavioral sciences and chair of medical humanities. So, again, we're delighted to have him with us. And local resident Gwen Packard, is part of our panel tonight. What if moved to this area in 1991? She came for what she thought was going to be a 12 week internship. And she's still here in Falmouth, is, is blessed, if I might say, by her presence.

00;07;15;11 - 00;07;46;09
Rev. Will Mebane
She's very active in the community, co-chairing the Committee for diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. She's an organizer for the Mariah Mitchell Women of Science Symposium and also is involved with Engage Feldman. So welcome to, Joe, David and Gwyneth. So we're going to jump right into the conversation and, ask you. We'll start with you, Joe.

00;07;46;12 - 00;08;05;25
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm sort of going alphabetically to, give us your thoughts, your answer to the question, where do you see disparities, racial disparities in the delivery of medicine and health care to black and brown people?

00;08;05;27 - 00;08;33;05
Joseph Burns
That's a great question. Well, thank you so much. I see it everywhere. I actually started working on this, idea of racial disparities. Not that it's my idea, but I started writing about it and doing some research for it in the last, eight weeks or so. Actually, Angie invited me to, and her friends at, racial justice Falmouth racial justice film.

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Joseph Burns
To make a presentation. When was that on? In September. October?

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Rev. Will Mebane
October? Yes.

00;08;39;27 - 00;08;58;19
Joseph Burns
And, so I started I started to look into it, and I was surprised at how much information is available. In fact, I was just looking for a story that was in the New York Times yesterday about Covid and racial disparities. And, they made the point that it's not so much a, a genetic factor.

00;08;58;22 - 00;09;22;14
Joseph Burns
It's really, social injustice. And, so I, I can't find it now. Someone sent it to me, and I can't remember if they sent me by text or by email, but, it's a huge problem. We've seen, Covid infection rates rising among, black and brown, Native American, Asian American people. And those rates are higher.

00;09;22;14 - 00;09;48;28
Joseph Burns
The death rate is higher, than they are for white people. And, I think, I don't want to say Covid has a silver lining because it doesn't. But, if it does, it has a pointed out that, racial inequality is, rampant in the United States. And that's one of the reasons why, the coronavirus is spreading so quickly and deaths are rising so rapidly among those populations.

00;09;49;00 - 00;10;10;06
Rev. Will Mebane
But I thank you for that, Joe. If someone had asked me, I think I could have told them that there were racial, racial disparities. But nobody has. What? We here go to a Professor Hufford and, asked you to give us your initial answer and thoughts to the question of moral racial disparities.

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David Hufford
Do much better than starting the way Joe did. We find them everywhere. And I talked about this at medical school for over 30 years. And I must say, it's important to be aware there is pushback. But these are not things that the profession really likes to hear. And most members of the profession, I think, exempt themselves from being able to think of others they think might have some some problem with this.

00;10;40;01 - 00;11;11;28
David Hufford
But it's really crucial to say that the source of these problems is and this came up in what Joe said also is almost entirely social and behavioral. It is not genetic. And I would give you, one not all studies look at this, but they are always should. A few years ago, not many, a study looking at the difference between maternal and white.

00;11;12;00 - 00;11;58;27
David Hufford
Mother and infant mortality, pregnancy and birth, found that the black mortality among mothers and infants was 243% of the rate among white women. Now, they looked at all sorts of different kinds of aspects, trying to come up with an explanation for this. And, eventually they began to think, well, maybe this is a genetic. So and one reason for that is that, some people listening may be aware of this, some very well known wealthy black women have had very difficult pregnancies and birth situations.

00;11;58;27 - 00;12;29;01
David Hufford
Serena Williams was one. Her story is really illustrative. Beyonce is another. And they thought, well, it's obviously not poverty, so it must be something more fundamentally biological. And they did a brilliant study comparing infant and maternal mortality among African women in Africa, who then migrated to the United States, and they followed them. They had a large sample, so they had plenty of pregnancies and births.

00;12;29;04 - 00;13;02;18
David Hufford
And the women in Africa had but had mortality and morbidity similar to the white population in America. When those women moved to the United States over a period of 5 or 6 years, the incidence of mortality and morbidity in that sample rose to roughly the same as the Black American population. It is something about being in America. Not to say that.

00;13;02;21 - 00;13;35;19
David Hufford
I mean, they we're not comparing this to Europe or any other part of the world. And it's not to say that there are no, what we might call behavioral disparities in Africa, but it really does show that whatever is producing this is not genetic, certainly not primarily genetic. But I think part of the background to our conversation would be I would hope and I know that not everyone is comfortable with this, that there is very little genetic difference between what we call the races.

00;13;35;22 - 00;14;17;08
David Hufford
And race is purely a social construct in the modern world. We share 99.99% of the DNA at the human race. Among all of us, there's very little genetic difference. So anyway, it's everywhere. And the sources are behavioral and social, including economic, educational. What are some other skill and strengths that we should? So poverty, education, employment, transportation, location, redlining, neighborhoods, those things are all sources of health differences.

00;14;17;10 - 00;14;48;26
David Hufford
And they are not individual. They all affect each other. And so it's a very complicated issue. But anyhow, back to what I said at the beginning. Joe's right. It's everywhere. And I do have to say, we really need to be thoughtful about the pushback that we get on those. Having been through many experiences with the Dean being very unhappy with me, finding out that I was teaching our students that there were such disparities in health care today, but I couldn't not teach it.

00;14;48;29 - 00;15;16;01
Rev. Will Mebane
Good for you that you've raised several important questions and, areas of this topic that I would like for us to explore. I'm sure Angie's going to want to delve deeper into it, but let me bring in one of, to the discussion of, Falmouth, resident. So this is something I know you've, thought about yourself, studied, yourself.

00;15;16;01 - 00;15;23;08
Rev. Will Mebane
So give us your initial response to the questions. Why Jesus exist?

00;15;23;10 - 00;15;49;06
Gwyneth Packard
Thank you. I'm coming at this from the perspective that being a black, white, biracial woman, my my mother was black. My father is white. And we see racial disparities in the obviously in me currencies and outcomes of Covid now, which has put the spotlight on this, with black, indigenous and Hispanic people, many more times likely, than white people to die from this virus.

00;15;49;06 - 00;16;28;19
Gwyneth Packard
But as dad pointed out, we've had decades of studies showing racial disparities in everything from environmental exposure to maternal and infant health, onset of diseases, treatment of chronic illness, pain management, and the effects of incarceration on the health of family members, let alone on inmates. And, when you look closer, you're seeing that the differences are in every stage, from the delivery of preventative care to entry paths to care plans to wait times for treatment and the delivery of care plans over time.

00;16;28;21 - 00;17;04;25
Gwyneth Packard
So there's there's a lot to look at. And and I do like thinking about it as a system. It, there there is resistance to the individual taking on responsibility. But if we look at it as systems and subsystems and talk about effecting, you know, if you can affect the education or incarceration, system to affect impact, the health subsystem, it can be helpful to let people examine it that way.

00;17;04;27 - 00;17;17;01
Rev. Will Mebane
Thank you. Go ahead. So, Onji what, what are your thoughts on this, this subject? What questions do you have for our panelists?

00;17;17;03 - 00;17;39;00
Onjale Scott Price
So I don't know if I thought much about racial disparities in health care, because I'm relatively young and relatively healthy and hadn't really seen the doctor too much. But, from personal experience is what I thought about this really a few years ago. Basically, long story short, I, I had acne for like the longest time, and I, I saw my ObGyn every year.

00;17;39;00 - 00;17;58;17
Onjale Scott Price
I saw my regular doctor and they were just like, take more water, don't eat junk food. You know, all this, all the stupid things and they tell you. And it wasn't until I saw a black Ob-Gyn that he said, you're a bit you're a bit old to have acne. I bet you have PCOS. And polycystic ovarian syndrome is so common.

00;17;58;17 - 00;18;23;07
Onjale Scott Price
I think it's 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 women have it. And yet in like the 25 or I guess 13, 14 years I had been seeing an ObGyn and had never come up, was never even discussed or talked about. And so I started to wonder, well, why is it that it wasn't until I saw a black Ob-Gyn after seeing 6 or 7 different ones while I was in college and moving around that it was finally brought to my attention was checked for it.

00;18;23;07 - 00;18;46;25
Onjale Scott Price
Sure enough, I have. It gave me a pill. No more acne like. And there's other things that come along with PCOS. But it was. It was very frustrating to know that something so common was not even discussed with me. And so then I started wondering about that and other aspects of life. My mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and so when she started going through, her, she did have to do chemo, but she had to do radiation.

00;18;46;25 - 00;19;17;19
Onjale Scott Price
I started wondering, what are they actually giving her the best care as a black woman? Like, are they actually telling her everything she needs to know? So they're I started asking those questions, and something that David brought up was about, Serena Williams and Beyonce going through their pregnancies and really hit home of like, wait, if these women incredibly well known all the money in the world and they aren't even getting the best care, I really need to advocate for myself.

00;19;17;19 - 00;19;30;18
Onjale Scott Price
And I really have to pay attention and ask questions and that's one of the things that kind of terrifies me about potentially having kids. But I feel like that's a whole nother subject. So we'll we'll leave that alone for now. So that's my thoughts.

00;19;30;20 - 00;20;10;00
Rev. Will Mebane
About Marie, younger black born in her, comments. From from the street, so to speak, and talked about that, that, you know, we have to advocate for ourselves. We being a people of color, we really have to advocate for ourselves. And I one of the articles I was reading in preparation for our time together, talked about how there is a marked difference, in the, health of a black person that may have been seen for years by a white physician, who then decides that, you know, I just don't think that physician's listening to me.

00;20;10;00 - 00;20;37;22
Rev. Will Mebane
I don't I don't think she or he's hearing me. Then. So I'm going to try this black physician. And sure enough, they go to a black physician and voila, like your experience. And all of a sudden they are listening to other, questions of race, different type of discussion, that takes place. So let me, let me ask our panelists and whoever would like to jump in on it.

00;20;37;24 - 00;20;59;11
Rev. Will Mebane
Feel free to do so. Just not all at once. Okay. So why? I mean, did you know, David sort of. He started given us sort of a litany of things of poverty and geography and, and what have you. But let me give each of you, each of you a chance for you to say.

00;20;59;13 - 00;21;54;25
David Hufford
I'd like to jump in, if I may, and I would this is a place to bring up another interesting comparison. And that is the treatment of women compared to the treatment of African-Americans. There are similar problems, problems of credibility, problems of dismissal and so forth. And part of the solution for the individual, particularly, is that a number of studies have shown that African-American physicians and female physicians are more willing to listen, more open to the stories that they're hearing, and more sympathetic, and in fact, a lot of people thought that that were on the gender side, that that was just an important thing for women to discover.

00;21;54;25 - 00;22;31;21
David Hufford
But some studies have shown men find the same thing. It's you get more listening and more thought out of a female physician than you do a male physician. Now, this is all. I don't mean to be that to be a stereotype, but in general, there is that. And I think that that is one of the things. And Angie found it, that could help when you if you are I was going to say if you're not sure that you're really being listened to, however cautionary note there, you do not always know when you're not being listened to.

00;22;31;23 - 00;22;53;28
David Hufford
Right? So the sympathetic ear, the thoughtful person, and you said you asked why? I suspect it's because women and African-Americans have been dismissed and not listened to so much in our society that they are just more aware, and more interested in doing something about it. Anyway, that's part of it.

00;22;54;00 - 00;23;29;13
Gwyneth Packard
There is an interesting study that I read, about the they wanted to see if there is a, difference for having, same race doctor for, population of black men. They had to put together a diverse clinic because they couldn't find one. So they hired half white and half black doctors, men, all men to and they told the doctors that their primary mission at this clinic was to convince people to take on preventative care measures.

00;23;29;13 - 00;23;55;00
Gwyneth Packard
There were five of them. They increased it in, severity of invasiveness and expense. So the like the, the, the least impactful one was take their blood pressure and then it went up to, having a shot or getting your blood drawn and I thought it was really interesting because at the beginning, the patients were all given a picture of the doctor they were going to have.

00;23;55;00 - 00;24;16;29
Gwyneth Packard
So they knew if it was a black doctor, a white doctor, and then they were asked to select the services they would take that day, and there was no difference, at that point in the study. So it wasn't just people saying, oh, it's a white doctor, right. And then they, they were asked to measure the doctor's qualifications.

00;24;16;29 - 00;24;39;28
Gwyneth Packard
And again, there was no difference between thinking that the black doctors and the white doctors were all qualified, and then they went in and the, black doctors were more able to convince and persuade the, this population of patients to accept more invasive and more expensive treatment. And then at the end, they were asked to rate their experience.

00;24;40;04 - 00;24;59;26
Gwyneth Packard
And again, it was uniform. The patients didn't notice a difference for themselves in their individual experience. They're like, yeah, was good. But overall, the black doctors have been able to persuade the patients to do more. And in the end, they noticed that the black doctors had taken more notes than the white doctors.

00;24;59;29 - 00;25;01;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Interesting.

00;25;01;10 - 00;25;28;21
Onjale Scott Price
And I'd like to chime in really quick with the interesting tidbit, talking about having black doctors and, so my father, to put in the context how recent it is that we have black doctors. My father was the first African American admitted and graduated from UCLA medical school. So fairly recently, this, you know, this last century. And he practiced medicine for he was an ObGyn.

00;25;28;21 - 00;25;49;22
Onjale Scott Price
And that's what he focused in. I mean, he practiced medicine for 14 or so years. And then he went back to school. He went to law school so that he could support people in malpractice suits, because he felt like in his profession as an ObGyn, as a black doctor, he saw so much malpractice that he went back to school so he could support those people.

00;25;49;25 - 00;26;08;27
Onjale Scott Price
And so thinking about people not saying, you know, a black doctor and maybe a white doctor or any other race, I think about my dad and how he I don't maybe other doctors have done this. I've never heard of one where they quit being a doctor so they can go support people because they're not getting the correct care.

00;26;09;00 - 00;26;11;29
Onjale Scott Price
I forgot how that tied in, but I know I wanted to know.

00;26;11;29 - 00;26;33;11
Rev. Will Mebane
That's good. Joe, I want to hear what you have to say, but I want the, So I heard today, just today, I was listening to a news report, and there's a group. A new group, maybe some of you know about it called, the Institute for Anti-Racism in medicine. I think I've got the name correct.

00;26;33;14 - 00;27;08;00
Rev. Will Mebane
It's a newly formed group, and one of the statistics they offered was that only 2%, 2% of all physicians in this country are African-American women, 2%. So one of the what a glaring, I guess, statement indictment is we've got to have more folks like, you know, Andrew's father going to medical school, black and, I mean, men and women.

00;27;08;03 - 00;27;10;05
Rev. Will Mebane
But, Joe, give us your thoughts.

00;27;10;08 - 00;27;34;17
Joseph Burns
Yeah. One of the, social, factors is a lack of health insurance. And, and you can see it in states that have not expanded Medicaid. Those states have higher rates of, the higher disproportionate rates of, of inequality, among their black and brown and, indigenous peoples, population than they do among whites.

00;27;34;19 - 00;27;52;15
Joseph Burns
And, you know, that's why that's why be you know, I cover health insurance. So, so that I, that I think is a big problem. And the answer to that is to expand Medicaid in all, states. I think there are 12 states left that have not expanded their Medicaid programs. The eligibility rates are low in, in those states.

00;27;52;17 - 00;28;27;02
Joseph Burns
And I wanted to mention that one other rich, rich one other, person of color who experienced, a bad outcome, was, Chrissy Teigen, who's married to, John Legend. Yeah. And, you know, you would think that's another one just like Serena and, and Beyonce was, all the, all the resources, friend of a friend of mine, recently her mother died, and her mother had been taken care of by a black woman, a Jamaican black woman.

00;28;27;04 - 00;28;47;15
Joseph Burns
And, the the the Jamaican black woman. I don't know her name. I just heard this story second hand, so I apologize, but, she had a stroke, and they took her to the hospital. The white family, friends of mine took her. They live here in East Ham. They took her to the hospital, and they were surprised because of the first 2 or 3 days of their, experience in the hospital.

00;28;47;15 - 00;29;08;17
Joseph Burns
This is a hospital in Connecticut. The, she was treated the the, black Jamaican, woman who taking care of their mother, who died, was treated very badly. And they were shocked because they were with her every step of the way. This white family, white woman and white man. And, they kept saying she's fully insured.

00;29;08;17 - 00;29;27;27
Joseph Burns
We pay for her health insurance. She has everything she needs. We're going to cover everything that she needs. And she was still treated badly. And it took them a number of days. I've heard this story secondhand, as I'm saying, but they were shocked. And I think that's part of the problem in America is we don't realize that this is happening unless it happens to us, but it doesn't happen to us as a as a white person.

00;29;27;27 - 00;29;44;22
Joseph Burns
Doesn't happen to me. But and as a, as a white family, it didn't happen to them. So, you know, when it does, I think it raises our awareness. But, you know, we have a big job to raise the awareness of those who aren't, who don't know about it. You mentioned on gee that your dad, was a physician.

00;29;44;28 - 00;30;08;17
Joseph Burns
He's probably, may know of the group is a group of medical doctors. The American, a group of African American doctors, have an association not as big as the American Medical Association, but it is for black doctors. And I wonder if he was a member of that group.

00;30;08;19 - 00;30;24;14
Onjale Scott Price
He passed several years ago, so I. I can't ask him, but I imagine that he would have been he was very, very involved. With the communities. So, I don't know, I could I could try to look through his records. That'd be really interesting to find out.

00;30;24;16 - 00;30;25;10
Joseph Burns
Yeah.

00;30;25;12 - 00;30;31;21
Rev. Will Mebane
National Medical Association, I think is, Oh, that sounds right. The organization you're representing. Joe.

00;30;31;24 - 00;30;48;24
Joseph Burns
I just want to say one more thing to, to Gwyneth. And that was that you mentioned, how the different populations were affected in the different areas of the country. And, USA today did a great six part series in October. I can send you the link, where they looked at, six different populations. I believe it was six.

00;30;48;24 - 00;31;12;17
Joseph Burns
Maybe it was five, different populations and how they were affected by Covid, black, family, black families, Native American Latino. I forget what the other two were, but, they did such a good job. Very, very thorough reporting, to, to, to bring this, out and, that's just extraordinary work.

00;31;12;19 - 00;31;14;08
Joseph Burns
I'll send you the link.

00;31;14;10 - 00;31;47;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. I had a, this discussion has reminded me of some experiences that I had and witness when I was working in a hospital. I was a chaplain. I've been a chaplain in, several hospitals, and, I remember now having to advocate for black patients that were admitted for any number of of conditions and illnesses and what have you.

00;31;47;10 - 00;32;24;18
Rev. Will Mebane
And yeah, it was on more than one occasion when I had to go around, you know, with all the doctors and the reporting out, you know, giving updates on their, their cases and all. And more than once I had to speak up in rounds when people were just passing over a patient of color and not offering the same sort of aggressive intervention that I knew they had offered to other patients who were white with the very same condition.

00;32;24;21 - 00;32;42;19
Rev. Will Mebane
And so I started speaking up. And of course, that didn't make me, very popular with, with some of the doctors in the room, but some of the caseworkers and social workers would come and say, well, I'm so glad you spoke up. And then I would say, why didn't you speak up? You know, you why are you advocating?

00;32;42;19 - 00;33;08;21
Rev. Will Mebane
But otherwise it had to be the black guy in the room that's going to speak up for the other black people. And people there. And I there's one case of a and we talked to us and I talked about pain management that, you know, a black person comes in and is in severe pain, often, I think the mindset is, oh, yeah, they're just they're trying to they're foraging for drugs and they want drugs.

00;33;08;24 - 00;33;38;00
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, just that's all this is about. They really don't have the pain. And I again, remember starkly this, well, this very fit white young man came in, the drug overdose. I gotta tell you, they, they moved heaven and hell to, to care for this young man who eventually died. He was only in his late 20s, physically fit, handsome, you know, blond hair, blue eyes and sort of stereotypical.

00;33;38;02 - 00;33;54;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. And his. But, man, you know, a black person come in that's in the very same condition, and they just dismiss him. They won't, you know, it's like, well, you know, he brought her in himself, but she brought her entire day. But I so, you.

00;33;54;12 - 00;34;14;26
David Hufford
Know, I want to give you an example of that, that I saw. It was also extremely dramatic. It was at I'm out of the school long enough now that I'm sure I can say this, without getting in any. They certainly aren't going to fire me. That one of our graduate students, in our number. Which department?

00;34;14;27 - 00;34;38;15
David Hufford
One of our basic science department was studying for finals with a friend in our library when she developed a very severe pain in her neck. And all they had to do is walk down the hall into the emergency room, which they did. Took a long time to get seen. The resident who saw her, said that he thought that what she was doing was trying to get drugs.

00;34;38;18 - 00;35;00;11
David Hufford
He didn't know that she was one of our students. And she called her father, who drove from Philadelphia and took her down there to the hospital, and she had to go to college, which is a severe spasm of the neck muscle. And I thought, wow, in, you know, a graduate student in a medical student in your own or emergency room suffers from that.

00;35;00;19 - 00;35;40;01
David Hufford
And I want to add to this one one other study that that was just published in 2016, which looks at large sample of medical students and residents and asked questions about African-American patients that would bear on treatment choices. And 50% of these medical students and residents showed significant false beliefs about African-American patients that would make a difference in care, for example, that they feel less pain, which is a very common thing about African-Americans and goes back to slavery days.

00;35;40;04 - 00;36;05;03
David Hufford
Also that their skin is thicker, they're tougher. And tons of other things. But 50% of not just actively enrolled students, but residents are people who have graduated and are now in practice. So. Well, when we said at the beginning, what are we going to do about this? We need everything that we've talked about. More African-American students.

00;36;05;08 - 00;36;48;13
David Hufford
I will say Penn State's done a great job of recruiting African-American students that a lot of black students in my classes. But we really need to get the percentage of physicians, at least up to the percentage percentage in our population. And we need to address, I mean, these things like do African-Americans feel pain less intensely. It's not going to be covered in a class ordinarily because it's not many people would say, why are you thinks that there are all kinds of of these beliefs and ideas about minorities in general and about women and about African Americans that really need to be unpacked, discovered in studies like this.

00;36;48;18 - 00;37;05;04
David Hufford
And then this directly addressed. And studies like this, it shouldn't just be studies, it should be screening. Because that's the source of a lot of the failed treatment that we're talking about.

00;37;05;06 - 00;37;27;00
Gwyneth Packard
Yeah. I'm I want to, address, a couple of you now have mentioned, observing the differences, and I've seen it a lot in my own family since, I have so many black family members and, and had a couple of white family members, and, and was there for the advanced care for, my grandmother and I would see the differences.

00;37;27;00 - 00;37;57;14
Gwyneth Packard
And I just want to bring up, a personal story for me about the pain. Which leads into, another thing about the ambiguity. So in my chart, it would say I was biracial. So the doctors, the medical providers would know I was black. And this, this racial construct of this, the social construct of race goes a little bit beyond, just the color of your own skin, you know, so, so racist.

00;37;57;16 - 00;38;20;06
Gwyneth Packard
Categorize me as black. And but there's the ambiguity. I, I had a, instance where they saw heart palpitations. They wanted to measure. They gave me an ultrasound, so there was gel, and then they had to put a halter on overnight. So they had to get the gel off and prep my skin with an abrasive and then put the glue on for these leads.

00;38;20;08 - 00;38;43;29
Gwyneth Packard
And I said something about how uncomfortable it was. And they just, you know, brushed me off and it got worse. And I said, it's really itching and stinging. Is it supposed to do that? And they said like, yeah, don't worry about it. And then before I left I said, this is really aggravating. Now is this okay? And she said, oh, we have a whiner.

00;38;44;01 - 00;39;03;07
Gwyneth Packard
At which point I didn't say anything else. But overnight it got to the point where I couldn't sleep. It felt like there was a wool sweater on over a case of poison ivy. It was incredibly distressing and I could barely drive. I was so distracted. I got myself sit there the next day and she went to take the leaves off, and she couldn't.

00;39;03;07 - 00;39;19;02
Gwyneth Packard
She actually had to do a procedure to take them because it had actually eaten through my skin. And I know how open wounds were, where all these leads were glued to me. And she had to, basically debrief the wounds. And she said, you should have said something.

00;39;19;04 - 00;39;21;08
Paul Courtney

00;39;21;11 - 00;39;46;06
Gwyneth Packard
And I don't know if that was generic callous treatment. It probably wasn't gender based. And she was also a woman. It could have been racial. But it brings up another thing I wanted to mention, which is this ambiguity, which is part of racism, and the experience of racism in America, for minoritized people is did that just happen to me?

00;39;46;06 - 00;40;33;14
Gwyneth Packard
Because that person had a bad day, or because I'm black or because, you know, and so when we talk about, racism and, and health care, we need to talk about this, whether in concept, I don't know if any of you have heard about, the, the idea that the, the cumulative impact of the racial or the racist experience, it impacts, health and health outcome, and they actually did a study, that showed that, younger black women were having better outcomes than even 25 year old black women.

00;40;33;17 - 00;41;00;17
Gwyneth Packard
And and partly attributing this to the longer time in the racist society. And we talked we talked already right about the the immigrant women who had been here longer and, and their outcomes, converging with the, the population who the native population. So, so, Chad, you've talked about the weathering concept.

00;41;00;20 - 00;41;27;27
David Hufford
Yeah, it's cumulative stress and weathering is what it's called. It's pretty decent term for it, actually. And there are a lot of things that it seems to account for. That part of part of what? You can't come up with more concrete explanations of looks as though it must be related to stress. And more and more studies coming out these days are supporting that hypothesis.

00;41;28;00 - 00;41;40;00
David Hufford
I mean, for heaven's sake, we know something about psychosomatic illness. We know something about the way in which stress produces ulcers and and high blood pressure. And so forth. We shouldn't be surprised.

00;41;40;03 - 00;41;59;25
Joseph Burns
Can we call that David and Gwyneth? Can we call it trauma? Because that's one of the factors that leads to and I don't know if we mentioned trauma, but, trauma in the black community, in the Native American community and in the Hispanic community, from racism is high and becomes a factor that you live with every day.

00;41;59;25 - 00;42;21;07
Joseph Burns
You know, black, people get pulled over in a horrible police. Well, you know that just because they were driving while black or walking while black or. Yeah, you name it. So yeah, that's a factor that needs to be included. I never heard the term weathering, but it certainly is, related to trauma.

00;42;21;07 - 00;42;53;26
Rev. Will Mebane
I think now that's a new term for me as well. Thank you for that. Educate you and go ahead. And I gotta say, I'm so sorry you experienced that. I mean, just as a human being, I'm just, Yeah. I'm just sorry you didn't do it. That kind of that kind of suffering and pain. So I want to move and, and and if you're okay, I we have a second question that we asked our, our guests who were on the street, to respond to and as we've already alluded to it, and that's you.

00;42;53;26 - 00;43;17;17
Rev. Will Mebane
So what do we do? You know, how do we how do we change this? What do we do to correct this situation? So why don't we take a moment and, hear what Marie had to say about that? Paul. All right. And we'll be right back.

00;43;17;20 - 00;43;28;13
Marie Younger Blackburn
I think it's incumbent upon us to be, educated, well versed, you know, people of color, black people in particular. Because I can only speak for them.

00;43;28;15 - 00;44;04;21
Paul Courtney
So certainly having a a broader education, or, I guess retraining about how you deliver as a physician. Right. Because it's both structurally within, how, How you have healthcare organizations actually distributed and their care, how the facilities are distributed structurally, making sure that you are not depriving people of, of health care just because they're not located nearby.

00;44;04;23 - 00;44;27;24
Paul Courtney
So, clearly, if you you can't just simply pick up a hospital and move it, ten miles to make it more, you know, make it achievable for people who've been denied health care to have it more easily. But maybe there are, you know, shuttle systems you end up running instead. But, I mean, this means that we need to acknowledge that this is actually a problem and that we need to, do something about it.

00;44;27;24 - 00;44;44;09
Paul Courtney
You know, that it just does not, you know, this is not right. You know it's not right. Absolutely not right. Morally not right. And on so many levels, so something like making, the services more easily available.

00;44;44;11 - 00;45;08;27
Marie Younger Blackburn
So I think, back to your point, that's the way we're going to solve it, is that we educate ourselves, arm ourselves with information, and we're proactive and we, use our voice and use it collectively. And I think there's no better time than now because the spotlight is on the disparity. You know, the spotlight is on the disparity.

00;45;08;29 - 00;45;38;23
Paul Courtney
The other part, you know, the other answer I know that has been promoted is a single payer system, which is certainly another way of doing that. So you just make sure that, nobody gets left behind because your particular, you know, like your employer, is only has certain plans available. So if you just have plans that are available no matter where you are, which is the way that most of the world does it, then, there's another way you can just make sure that, at least.

00;45;38;26 - 00;45;39;22
Paul Courtney
You have a.

00;45;39;22 - 00;45;49;03
Paul Courtney
Better chance, I think, of reducing health disparities in this, in, in delivering in the health care, making it available.

00;45;49;05 - 00;46;02;06
Marie Younger Blackburn
You know, it's up to us to advocate for ourselves, when we feel that, we are not getting the proper care or we're not being listened to.

00;46;02;08 - 00;46;17;05
Onjale Scott Price
So we've heard from Paul and from Marie their thoughts on how do we address these disparities in health care when it comes to race. And one thing that really stuck out to me, that Marie said that we mentioned earlier, was advocating for ourselves.

00;46;17;08 - 00;46;38;17
Onjale Scott Price
And we know that sometimes that works. And in this case, we know that sometimes it doesn't work. So, what are your thoughts on how do we deal with these disparities and how do we deal with them either individually or how do we deal with the system that creates them? I'll open that up.

00;46;38;20 - 00;47;08;18
Gwyneth Packard
I thought, I like we talked about racism as a system and talking about how it has many subsystems that are all related. Because if you if you look at, majority black neighborhoods bearing the higher burden of pollution and environmental risk, more hospital closures, scarcity of higher paying jobs, lack of quality education, lack of safe spaces to exercise and be physically active.

00;47;08;20 - 00;47;41;15
Gwyneth Packard
Lack of access to healthy foods. Overincarceration which as I mentioned, affects not only the inmates but also the health of inmates families. We have to address all of it, but some really discreet things that have been shown to have an impact. Aside from the longer term goal of having an increase in diversity in doctors, is also having an increase in lay health advisors that's been shown to work.

00;47;41;15 - 00;48;23;09
Gwyneth Packard
So they have community members who are, like, well-liked and well trusted, do an 80 hour, training and start having interventions in their own communities that's been shown to work having more, black doulas, which again, takes less time than training a doctor. And it should be noted that immigrant women and black women dominated the practice of midwifery in the US until the early 20th century, and the medicalization of the practice and the onslaught of, regulations and licensure and stuff erected barriers to midwifery that started excluding women of color from from that space.

00;48;23;12 - 00;48;35;03
Gwyneth Packard
So those are some of the things we could end racism and have more, more black doctors, more black doulas, more black lay health advocates.

00;48;35;05 - 00;48;38;03
Onjale Scott Price
All right. So step one, end racism. Got it.

00;48;38;06 - 00;48;40;20
Rev. Will Mebane
Know we're working on it. We're working on.

00;48;40;20 - 00;48;43;24
Onjale Scott Price
It. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing now. Joe, I.

00;48;43;25 - 00;49;21;29
David Hufford
I have a suggestion. I think it would. I think it would be really helpful if we recognize that all of the factors that went into listed, economics, employment, neighborhood, the state of neighborhoods, all of those things, all of those are associated with medical problems, and not not just individually. They're all if you if you if you took obesity, for example, as a well known health risk, 70% of American health expenses are related to obesity.

00;49;22;01 - 00;49;51;06
David Hufford
And the relationship of obesity as a cause of illness. Well, every one of the factors that we've talked about that I just listed has plays a role in obesity. Neighborhoods, redlined type neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods not only have a lack of space and places for exercise, but are dangerous to go out, take walks in and run in so people don't go out and do that.

00;49;51;09 - 00;50;17;29
David Hufford
Lack of education. Education is strongly correlated with better health, because we use real estate taxes to fund our public school system. Poor people have poor schools and rich people have terrific schools. So, and what are some of the other factors? As Dr. Quinn has mentioned, all of them, it's important to know they are not separate. Employment is another one.

00;50;18;05 - 00;50;46;09
David Hufford
Well, employment has something to do with neighborhood neighbor. It has nothing to do with transportation, which then becomes an impediment to employment if you're in the wrong neighborhood, which means that's an impediment to getting out of poverty. So all of these, when we when we think about how to make health better for African Americans, it doesn't all simply work in the medical system.

00;50;46;11 - 00;51;18;08
David Hufford
I mean, obviously, that's what we've been mostly talking about, and that's terrifically important. But even if we had a highly enlightened, open minded, sympathetic medical system, if we didn't fix these other things, we would continue to have terrific, you know, impact, negative impact on health. So I think it requires a holistic response, which means that those people who say, what do you mean systemic racism, you know, can't be just a few bad people?

00;51;18;10 - 00;51;21;01
David Hufford
Well, that doesn't work.

00;51;21;04 - 00;51;59;29
Gwyneth Packard
Oh, I want to point out one more thing, which might set Joe up really nicely, because he said, it's your feet that another thing is providing good health insurance across the board to everyone. With universal standards of care. And we talked earlier about Medicaid. One of the problems for many women of color, black women, specifically in the maternal and infant outcomes is the gap in, Medicaid, providing only 60 days postpartum treatment, whereas a lot of these things come up during the rest of that first year after, the birth.

00;52;00;04 - 00;52;01;29
David Hufford
So,

00;52;02;01 - 00;52;04;08
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. What do you think, Joe?

00;52;04;10 - 00;52;28;05
Joseph Burns
I think you're absolutely right about that, Gwyneth. And I think that, when you look at health insurance, and I think it was you who mentioned screening, a few minutes ago. Screening is very, very important. Chad Chadwick Boseman, the actor who died of, colon cancer, was only, what, 35 or 40 colon cancer.

00;52;28;07 - 00;52;51;28
Joseph Burns
And someone said, I read somewhere that really? That's a factor that should, black men of his age should be screened before white men. Because the, the disease, colon cancer affects black men earlier in life than it does, white people. So, but but health but health insurance is a is a very big, factor.

00;52;51;28 - 00;53;15;17
Joseph Burns
And, you know, Americans have this idea that, you know, we're, we're rugged individualist and everything, but that doesn't that the, you know, that doesn't serve us well, that idea, when it comes to, to getting care in Europe, you can get, very good care, for no cost. And Americans don't even realize that, you know, we think we have this great, wonderful health care system.

00;53;15;17 - 00;53;32;11
Joseph Burns
Well, yeah, maybe we do, but, the financing of it is very poor. And does not serve everyone. So. And so that would be, what I would suggest. It's, it's hard to say. We've got to change the political system, but but basically, we do.

00;53;32;13 - 00;53;51;26
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, that's what, what Paul said, in on the video that we just saw. You know, that we need a single payer system, and you have a single payer system, then it just automatically takes away all the issues about, you know, what's that first question you get when you get to the emergency department? Do you have insurance?

00;53;51;28 - 00;53;53;26
Rev. Will Mebane
You know that they.

00;53;53;27 - 00;53;55;13
Onjale Scott Price
Want to meet or not?

00;53;55;15 - 00;53;56;07
Rev. Will Mebane
So again.

00;53;56;10 - 00;53;59;27
Onjale Scott Price
It's like a if you have insurance, you probably going to be seen quicker than somebody who does it.

00;53;59;27 - 00;54;23;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Might it just that's the system. Right. So we could do away with that. If everybody who walks in is going to get the same treatment and is going to have their bills paid for, the same way, and it would just reduce some of the, the stratification and,

00;54;23;10 - 00;54;32;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Look, looked looking for the word that inefficiencies and equity. Equity. That's the word. Thank you. That's the word on the for you on David.

00;54;33;02 - 00;54;59;15
David Hufford
Yeah. And you're absolutely right. I, I lived for four years in Canada many years ago, teaching there and Canada has universal health care, free universal health care and my my youngest child at the time was in the hospital for most of his first year after he was born. And we were in far eastern Canada, he had to be flown to Toronto to see Children's Hospital.

00;54;59;18 - 00;55;28;00
David Hufford
He had to spend six weeks there. I put the card. I had the card that the person at the desk when he was first admitted to the hospital, I got it back. That's all I ever heard about what it cost and that sounds to a lot of Americans, apparently like an extravagant practice. It is a lot cheaper on the overall cost of care in the country than this ridiculous system that we're using.

00;55;28;02 - 00;55;32;25
David Hufford
It's not just more fair, it's more efficient. All right. Thank.

00;55;32;27 - 00;55;39;18
Onjale Scott Price
Oh, speaking of fair and efficient, I think we want to talk a little bit about this vaccine that's coming out for,

00;55;39;20 - 00;55;40;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, let's do that.

00;55;41;01 - 00;55;43;05
Onjale Scott Price
Go ahead, go ahead. Red, take that over now.

00;55;43;05 - 00;56;12;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I yeah. Thanks, Andre. In the time we have remaining, I like us to spend some time with that because we are all hearing the reports, the statistics about out there. First of all, we've done a lot of anecdotal sharing. Like I say this evening, this during this time together, we just fine. But there's a whole ton of research, statistical work out there to support, what's been shared here, during this conversation.

00;56;12;10 - 00;56;49;13
Rev. Will Mebane
So one of the things we're hearing is that, black folks, brown folks are dying, three times the rate of white folks from Covid 19. They are sicker, than the average white person is. And now we have these vaccines. Hallelujah. Grateful for that. Give thanks to the scientists and researchers and logistics personnel and pharmacies and nurses and doctors and the UPS, Fedex drivers.

00;56;49;13 - 00;57;19;02
Rev. Will Mebane
I give thanks to them. All right, but there's this hesitancy that's been proven statistically that black folks, a lot of black folks don't want to get it. They've got this, hesitancy about it. And, I think it probably comes down to trust. So let's let's hear what our, the panelists have to say. What you have to say about about that.

00;57;19;05 - 00;57;42;19
David Hufford
I pass something in on it. Okay. I think that we really need to make sure that we include reference to the Tuskegee experiment that cannot be overestimated. And I speak to I speak to African-American people every month who somehow in the conversation about health that comes up as the reason that they will not do certain medical things.

00;57;42;25 - 00;57;49;10
Rev. Will Mebane
So if you didn't bring it up, I was going to bring it up. I'm glad you brought it up. Absolutely right. Tuskegee.

00;57;49;13 - 00;58;07;22
Gwyneth Packard
Yeah. Michael Harriot brought it up this week because he was on a show on Sunday where he and then he posted on Twitter, did you all see him just say to me that the Tuskegee experiment was so long ago for your nation? That man was 15 when it ended.

00;58;07;24 - 00;58;08;16
Joseph Burns

00;58;08;18 - 00;58;12;26
Gwyneth Packard
Yeah. It wasn't so long ago. Oh that was during my lifetime that it ended.

00;58;12;29 - 00;58;18;20
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. But yeah it started in 1932 I believe. And it really didn't end until.

00;58;18;22 - 00;58;19;15
Gwyneth Packard
72.

00;58;19;22 - 00;58;23;06
Rev. Will Mebane
70, 72. Yes. Right. Thank you. Oh yeah.

00;58;23;08 - 00;58;42;09
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah I don't think I realized it was that recent. I will say I it, I started to read medical apartheid before this show, in preparation and I couldn't, I couldn't get through the first chapter. I needed to give myself a mental break with everything going on. So I feel I feel somewhat ignorant on that, on that note.

00;58;42;13 - 00;58;50;16
Onjale Scott Price
But I think that really puts it into perspective how, like, how far we have not come. If that was that was less than 40 years ago.

00;58;50;19 - 00;59;34;24
David Hufford
Yeah. And it really is important to say it's not just the Tuskegee experiment. It is the light that showed on the problem of trust between physicians and patients. And the, informed consent movement was really triggered by the Tuskegee experiment. And we are not there yet at the really, we need to make it so that medical experts, when they talk about this stuff, they tell you the bad news with the good news, they tell you the whole thing, and and that checkable because the tendency at the experts to try to move you into the treatment path that they would like by holding back on the risks and pushing on what they see as the benefits,

00;59;34;26 - 00;59;44;27
David Hufford
is very counterproductive, particularly to people like the African American population. All all they have to do is say, well, look at what you did before.

00;59;44;29 - 01;00;02;01
Gwyneth Packard
I got family. Most of my family is in Baltimore and my black family, and I've got aunties who will just in the course of a conversation. And they're not they're not in the medical profession or anything that Henrietta Lacks will come up. Right. But they'll just they'll be talking that wasn't right. And they'll they'll talk. There's a huge trust gap.

01;00;02;01 - 01;00;14;26
Gwyneth Packard
It is part of. I don't know if I would call it the oral history, but it's part of the current conversation. Yeah. Of, of our adults today. This is not a long time ago.

01;00;14;28 - 01;00;24;11
David Hufford
And it's a well-founded lack of trust. We shouldn't say they just need to understand better. Know the people who are not trusted need to understand better.

01;00;24;13 - 01;00;40;09
Rev. Will Mebane
There's a reason for the lack of trust. This one just want to like or just. I didn't know the address. Yeah, I'm chomping at the bit to say more, but I'm supposed to be co-hosting, so I'm. It. Joe. Come on, get in here.

01;00;40;13 - 01;01;12;16
Joseph Burns
Yeah. I interviewed a woman, in Baltimore, actually. Gwyneth, recently, and she was working for Johns Hopkins as, a person whose job was to, test, populations, test patients in, areas where they might be reluctant to, to get tested. And, she had a, really tough job because she was working with a lot of Latino communities and, they, you know, didn't want to be tested because, they thought they had to pay.

01;01;12;16 - 01;01;30;29
Joseph Burns
They didn't want to be tested because they thought if they tested positive, they would not be able to work. They didn't want to be tested because, I mean, they would be identified as someone who, you know, shouldn't, there were a lot of reasons why they don't want to be tested. Those are, those are a couple a couple of the big ones.

01;01;31;01 - 01;01;53;08
Joseph Burns
And if they're reluctant to be tested, then and they don't get tested, then and they're, they're, infected, then that continues to spread the, the virus. And, that was a very hard, barrier for her to break. Breakthrough. But that was her job, and she was very, very good at it. But it was great to hear her talk.

01;01;53;10 - 01;02;07;25
Joseph Burns
But, but that's just one part of the problem, which was, testing and vaccines is a whole nother part of the problem. I think the other was reluctance was, you know, just don't trust the health care system, because as soon as you're identified in the health care system, well, then you have a problem. And they didn't want that.

01;02;07;25 - 01;02;13;19
Joseph Burns
So, yeah, we have we have a lot of work to do to, to overcome those barriers.

01;02;13;22 - 01;02;48;02
Rev. Will Mebane
So let me ask the, the, the scientists here. I heard something, from a very reputable source, a couple of weeks ago about the polio vaccine that I had not heard before that, you know, there were two ways of administering that vaccine. One was with the injection into the arm, but also there was the sugar cube and the, vaccine was placed on the top of a sugar cube.

01;02;48;04 - 01;02;56;19
Rev. Will Mebane
And if I've got this correct, The white folks got the injection in the arm.

01;02;56;21 - 01;02;57;09
Paul Courtney

01;02;57;12 - 01;03;08;11
Rev. Will Mebane
And the people of color got the sugar cube. I may have that reverse, but I think that's what I would do. Any of you have any knowledge about that?

01;03;08;14 - 01;03;21;02
Onjale Scott Price
I've never I've never heard of that. But when you said the white people got the shot, I my first immediate thought was they didn't put the vaccine on the sugar cube when they gave it to the black people. That was like, I don't know. I have no idea if that's true. I have no idea to talk about Rams.

01;03;21;04 - 01;03;24;15
Onjale Scott Price
I say based on my experience. Yeah, like they haven't.

01;03;24;17 - 01;03;38;25
David Hufford
I have no idea either, Bill. But there is something about the polio vaccine that has also played into the lack of trust. At the beginning of the polio vaccine, we had to use live, polio virus.

01;03;38;25 - 01;03;39;25
Rev. Will Mebane

01;03;39;28 - 01;04;19;00
David Hufford
And eventually and that had risks. And people did get polio from the vaccine. And as they moved toward a safer vaccine, doctors started telling big fibs about about risk and what was what the vaccine was actually like. Now, during that transition period, I don't remember all the details, but I know that, at the time I thought, this is another one of those examples where that you're going to regret because you really need to say what the risks are, admit to them and identify them when they emerge.

01;04;19;02 - 01;04;36;23
David Hufford
Because I'm sure that that I've heard people use the polio vaccine in a variety of ways as examples, probably coming from that historically, I wouldn't be surprised if the Sugarcubes saying maybe something to do with how the vaccine was administered in the 50s, but I don't know for sure.

01;04;36;25 - 01;05;02;02
Joseph Burns
Yeah. It was a report last night on the Rachel Maddow Show. She talked about it. Will, I think she said that if I recall this correctly, the Sabin vaccine was administered orally, and the soft vaccine was, was a was, an inoculation. And, you know, I don't recall her saying, any more about that than just that, but, I might have missed it, but yeah.

01;05;02;04 - 01;05;03;19
David Hufford
It bears looking into.

01;05;03;21 - 01;05;28;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. I want to do some homework on that myself. Yeah. So, we were at our time, folks. I can't believe it. This is, phenomenal. First of all, our audience should know that, Gwyneth, Packard and, David Huppert are related. You've heard them refer to one another is, as as, Well, she referred to him his dad a few times.

01;05;28;17 - 01;05;30;02
Rev. Will Mebane
So that's the connection there.

01;05;30;07 - 01;05;31;26
Gwyneth Packard
We go. Way back.

01;05;31;28 - 01;05;34;15
David Hufford
Yeah, we go way back. Right.

01;05;34;17 - 01;05;57;09
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, one another for, you know, one another from the beginning. From the beginning. Yeah. So I want to thank you, you both for, contributing to, the conversation around the these disparities in health care medicine and the challenges that we face to eradicate the racism that exists there. And, Joe Burns, thank you for the work that you're doing.

01;05;57;11 - 01;06;24;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Keep up the good work and spreading the word, through your, your writings, very, very much appreciate it. And you're always a pleasure to be with you. And, thank you for sharing. Yeah. I love you, too. Folks, we thank you for tuning in to the conversation. A chance for us to some have some honest dialog around issues of race and racism.

01;06;25;01 - 01;06;49;25
Rev. Will Mebane
We're grateful that you tune in. Thanks, as always, to, Deborah Rogers and Carmen Russell, from CTV for this opportunity and all the behind the scenes work they do in pulling this all together and making me look good or as best they can, given what they've got to work with. All right. So until we are together again for, the conversation,

01;06;49;27 - 01;06;57;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Be safe. I heard something recently. What did they say? So stay positive. Test negative.

01;06;57;12 - 01;06;58;25
Joseph Burns
Oh, on.

01;06;58;28 - 01;07;00;10
Rev. Will Mebane
And bye for now.

01;07;00;13 - 01;07;04;07
Joseph Burns

01;07;04;10 - 01;07;07;27
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01;07;07;29 - 01;07;22;08
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01;07;22;11 - 01;07;28;02
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01;07;28;04 - 01;07;28;24
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