00;00;08;19 - 00;00;36;19
Onjale Scott Price
Welcome to The Conversation, a Falmouth community television show where my fantastic co-host, the Reverend William Mebane and I Onjale Scott Price, facilitate conversations with members of our community on various topics around race. Our hope is that these conversations don't just stay here. Our hope is that our conversations continue in your home and your community, wherever you're watching from, with your family and with your friend.

00;00;36;21 - 00;00;51;17
Onjale Scott Price
So as we're in the midst of this holiday season, we felt it was appropriate to talk about Thanksgiving and the indigenous peoples. So to start us off, we're going to hear from a few people on the street with their thoughts around Thanksgiving and indigenous peoples.

00;00;52;10 - 00;01;23;16
Andre Price
So I think that neither Thanksgiving or Columbus Day are inherently racist, but it's important that we, focus on how we recognize those days and celebrate those days. I think that Columbus Day in, in itself is problematic based on, historical evidence. Columbus was not a great person. He also didn't discover anything contrary to the romanticized narrative that we continue to tell.

00;01;23;19 - 00;01;56;23
Andre Price
You can't discover anything. That's art that that already has people there. And Thanksgiving. I don't see anything wrong with sitting down with friends and family and having dinner, but it's important that we, discontinue the narrative of, that the pilgrims and the natives sat down and everything was, you know, a great time because we now know that it wasn't necessarily that smooth.

00;01;56;23 - 00;02;00;14
Andre Price
And, things didn't go that way.

00;02;00;16 - 00;03;00;07
Matt Liles
Because I think that oftentimes, white Americans tend to when we talk about colonialism, we tend to think about what we consider to be, kind of like our humble roots. But we don't pay enough attention to, how complex colonialism is and was, and to celebrate those roots without acknowledging the pain that colonialism caused, to indigenous communities that were already here, and without considering the ways in which those celebrations, exclude nonwhite Americans, in their most traditional sense.

00;03;00;09 - 00;03;05;14
Matt Liles
I think that's irresponsible and that we can do better.

00;03;05;18 - 00;03;30;01
Onjale Scott Price
Welcome back. We just heard from our people on the street. But before we jump in the conversation about specifically what those people said, I want to pose a question to our panelists to make sure that we are being inclusive and respectful as we move forward. So I know there is a lot of discussion, maybe, perhaps controversy around different words or terms that are used to describe people.

00;03;30;03 - 00;03;48;27
Onjale Scott Price
And, I'm reading a book that describes the Wampanoags as Indians. But I also know some people don't prefer that term. They may prefer native or indigenous. So before we get started, I'd like to just ask all the panelists. I'll introduce you and and just let me know how you feel about those words and what you prefer. We use tonight.

00;03;49;00 - 00;04;09;10
Onjale Scott Price
So, Jerry, I'll start with you. Jerry Lasso, if you're a member of the Tongva tribe hailing from Los Angeles, you have a master's in secondary education from University of Colorado. And you've been a teacher for. Seems like a really long time, over 30 years. And you just moved to East Falmouth. So welcome to the community. We're glad to have you.

00;04;09;12 - 00;04;16;00
Onjale Scott Price
So tell me a little bit about how you feel about, the different terms you use to describe indigenous people.

00;04;16;03 - 00;04;31;11
Jerry Lassos
Well, I appreciate the welcome. Thank you. I prefer, I believe, indigenous because it's a little more inclusive of, the different cultures that fall in that category. So indigenous for me.

00;04;31;13 - 00;04;59;00
Onjale Scott Price
Okay. Thank you. Gerry and Talia. Talia, you are, from Mashpee and you attended Quinnipiac University. I hope I said that correctly. Majoring in communications. And you previously worked for the Wampanoag tribe here, Historic preservation Department. And then as the executive assistant to the vice chair. And you're now one. You are also one of the filmmakers of the amazing documentary Mashpee nine, which I suggest everyone who's watching this should also go watch.

00;04;59;02 - 00;05;09;24
Onjale Scott Price
And, you currently work for Mashpee TV as the,

00;05;09;27 - 00;05;21;27
Onjale Scott Price
What is as the productions manager? Production manager? I apologize, I didn't write that down. So could you tell me a little bit about, how you feel about the different words to describe indigenous people?

00;05;21;29 - 00;05;46;24
Talia Landry
Yeah. Well, hi. And thank you for having me. And thanks for asking that question. I don't think a lot of people put that into consideration. For me, I definitely don't prefer any use of the word Indian, but I, do like Joe saying, appreciate indigenous more, but I tend to use native more, just within, you know, my profession and stuff like that, either trying to describe natives and non-natives and such.

00;05;46;24 - 00;05;51;16
Talia Landry
So natives or indigenous, both are good with me.

00;05;51;18 - 00;06;15;25
Onjale Scott Price
Okay. Thank you. And Julie. Julie Vander hoop, you grew up in Aquinnah on Martha's Vineyard, a member of the Wampanoag tribe. And I believe you left the island for a while to be a commercial pilot, which is super cool. And you're back on the island now with your family. And you're the founder and owner of Orange Peel Bakery on Martha's Vineyard, which I'm sure you're very busy this time of year.

00;06;15;28 - 00;06;40;16
Onjale Scott Price
So if you wouldn't mind telling me about your preferred language for indigenous people. I, I think I agree with Talia. I I'm both. I use indigenous. Just because I agree with Gerry, and it is all inclusive as well as native to bring a focus to the, Native American side of things. So. Okay, no offense taken.

00;06;40;22 - 00;07;05;18
Onjale Scott Price
Just as long as people are thinking about the right, you know, us in in a positive focus. Okay. Thank you. I, I appreciate you all for that. I will do my best to make sure indigenous and Native through our conversation and moving forward. So, the first question that we posed for people on the street was, do you see racism in the celebration of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving?

00;07;05;25 - 00;07;14;15
Onjale Scott Price
So I'd like to ask my panelists, do you see racism in the celebration of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving?

00;07;14;17 - 00;07;26;22
Onjale Scott Price
Anyone's. Welcome to the say that one more time. Yeah. Do you see racism in the celebration of Columbus Day and or Thanksgiving?

00;07;26;24 - 00;07;57;07
Talia Landry
Yeah. Well, I can start, personally, I don't see it's kind of personally, I don't see the racism as much in Thanksgiving, even though it can, be looked at. But there is definitely more racism in Columbus Day. So I do see racism portrayed in Columbus Day much rather than Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving. I think it's more, just like a fabricated myth or, it's turned into an Americanized holiday.

00;07;57;07 - 00;08;19;17
Talia Landry
It's not historically accurate or culturally accurate. So I don't think it's, racist. It's more just kind of took something from our culture and turned it into, but put it into American culture. And as long as it's looked at as that way and not looked at as the fabricated myth that is being taught in some schools, then I don't think it's, racist.

00;08;19;20 - 00;08;36;22
Onjale Scott Price
Okay. Thank you. Yeah. I do think there's definitely cause for concern of people believing that the Thanksgiving myth is actually what happened, and not just using it as a, a tool for being able to talk about indigenous people and their relationship to the colonists when they arrived.

00;08;36;25 - 00;09;05;16
Jerry Lassos
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, the depiction of the first Thanksgiving and there's a stereotypical perspective, and the inaccuracy is, are concerning, for example, the mixing of cultural elements. So children, you know, asked to draw pictures of teepees and things like that. And there's that generalization that, all Native Americans live in. Teepees are all Native Americans are the same.

00;09;05;16 - 00;09;40;27
Jerry Lassos
And I think that doesn't do, it does a disservice to the over 570 tribes that exist. So, hopefully we're working towards getting beyond that kind of depiction. And as far as Columbus, you know, the, the inaccuracies, the. Well, and I'm old enough to have been remember being taught about, the discovery of America and proving the world was round and landing in the place that he was seeking, which was India, and therefore naming the people Indians.

00;09;40;29 - 00;10;18;27
Jerry Lassos
You know, he has become a symbol of the oppressor. The whole goal of, gold glory. God. And, you know, unfortunately, he has a legacy of, the colonization, genocide, the historical trauma that has resulted since, but I think things have been changing slowly. And we're on the right track because, I don't know how you correct 400 years of in your inaccuracy, but, the celebration of Indigenous Peoples Day is a very good start.

00;10;18;29 - 00;10;45;29
Jerry Lassos
I find as a, as an educator, that the Massachusetts Chronicles can be a very good resource, especially if it's embedded into the curriculum. So kids really see a native perspective on an ongoing basis. And then, as the Reverend mentioned, you know, the events that, happened in 2020, the awakening to equality and, social justice and those kinds of things.

00;10;46;05 - 00;11;14;25
Jerry Lassos
And then programs like this are very important to have those sometimes difficult conversations. So trend is good and it's, hopeful, I think, for all of us. And as far as Thanksgiving, I think, the whole I view of self-determination, for individual tribes and, indigenous people as a whole, the focus on elders and the keepers of the history and the culture is very important.

00;11;14;27 - 00;11;33;20
Jerry Lassos
Language revitalization, all of those efforts, and hopefully with this newfound awakening, there'll be a lot more understanding and support for those kinds of efforts, locally and across the nation. So, it's a good trend.

00;11;33;23 - 00;11;40;03
Onjale Scott Price
And I'm glad you think so. Sometimes I feel that way also in that. Julie, do you have any thoughts?

00;11;40;05 - 00;11;55;29
Julianne Vanderhoop
Yeah, I certainly do. Especially. Well, we'll start with Columbus Day, and I just think that that is wound up with so many missing sections that.

00;11;55;29 - 00;11;58;04
Julianne Vanderhoop
It's.

00;11;58;06 - 00;12;43;01
Julianne Vanderhoop
It's it's. It's founded in way too many myths over truths. And I do not, want to celebrate, you know, Columbus Day, because the truths are hard to hear. And, you know, if we're going to celebrate, then it shouldn't be false. And they, you know, we have to celebrate real heroes and I'm sure there are many, better ones.

00;12;43;01 - 00;13;12;09
Julianne Vanderhoop
And this has gone on for far too long. And this is all part of the change that we want to see. And why we are are here to discuss this. And Thanksgiving is the same thing. I cannot tell you how many people I know that do not even recognize the people that were here on the shore, living here, and who supported the colonists as they came into our lands?

00;13;12;12 - 00;13;41;07
Julianne Vanderhoop
It's very hard for me to say, you know, happy Thanksgiving. I don't I say happy holiday, you know, so it is a holiday that we gather on. And that is so much better for myself. And although I have members of my family that haven't come to this point, to come to that turn and keep on using this, you know, we can all be thankful, but we need to be thankful every day.

00;13;41;09 - 00;13;48;10
Julianne Vanderhoop
So, you know, these are the reminders, you know, that I have for people and.

00;13;48;13 - 00;13;56;04
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Reverend Will, what are you thinking about over there in the corner?

00;13;56;06 - 00;14;27;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, first of all, I'm just, delighted. Thrilled, to be in your presence. And I mean that very sincerely. You're already teaching me, and I'm I'm I'm hoping to learn more from, Jerry and Julie and to all of you, today, and already I have stopped using, I stopped using Indian a long time ago.

00;14;28;00 - 00;14;54;16
Rev. Will Mebane
So at some point, I had an epiphany. An awakening that, that was just not not proper. So I appreciate you confirm me that, native or indigenous is much more, much more appropriate than than Indian. I'm going to ask you a, I think a very simple question for us to continue my education. And then I'll, I'll follow up.

00;14;54;18 - 00;15;17;04
Rev. Will Mebane
So is there a a native holiday that is similar to Thanksgiving? Was Thanksgiving an appropriation of an indigenous holiday that existed, or an indigenous celebration that existed prior to how we understand Thanksgiving?

00;15;17;06 - 00;15;19;15
Jerry Lassos
Yes.

00;15;19;17 - 00;15;21;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Tell me more, Julie.

00;15;21;27 - 00;15;48;29
Julianne Vanderhoop
Well, we have, under the well, it was, Cranberry day for us the second Tuesday in October is a day that we all gather, and we're gathering, with respect and thoughts to our ancestors who would go down and bring in our last harvest. The cranberries were really important to our people because, you know, they gave us sustenance because of the way that they kept.

00;15;49;02 - 00;16;10;27
Julianne Vanderhoop
We put them in so many of our foods, and and they carried us through the winter. The crop was a late growing crop. And so we would go down to our bogs and we would pick intent down there for weeks at a time to bring in bushels of these cranberries. And I believe that it really sustained our people.

00;16;11;00 - 00;16;34;22
Julianne Vanderhoop
So we still get we get together. And this is a celebration for us. And, normally in normal years, we would gather with the entire community for a potlatch, and that's it's just wonderful. Also, that drumming, singing, dancing and and bringing in our celebration of the harvest.

00;16;34;25 - 00;16;52;00
Talia Landry
Yeah. Just to, piggyback off of that is that's just a common thing I think that natives and especially, you know, Eastern Woodlands had specific times of year that we were being thankful for certain harvest like around this time it would be cranberry but it would be a lot sooner, like you're a saint, like Julie was saying in October.

00;16;52;02 - 00;17;17;19
Talia Landry
So and even when, like the spring comes around, we have strawberries and we have that welcoming of the herring. And it's kind of our new year that can be looked at as some sort of other Thanksgiving. So I think the concept of Thanksgiving, you know, being grateful for the Bountiful harvest or just in celebrating amongst family and friends, I, I do think, you know, that did come from the native culture and it is appropriate as far as that.

00;17;17;19 - 00;17;46;03
Talia Landry
But it was obviously celebrated at a bit different, and we definitely aren't thankful just one day a year. And I think that's the overall point that we carry within ourselves when it comes to, Thanksgiving time, I think. And that's kind of bothersome as well, is that, there's only one day, I guess, for America to be thankful when as native people, we're thankful every day, and especially during the changes of seasons and stuff, we have specific things that we're thankful for for that upcoming season or what we're preparing for, and so on and so forth.

00;17;46;05 - 00;18;07;20
Talia Landry
But I think the one the Thanksgiving, like you were saying with the cranberries and stuff, we, it was maybe probably a lot bigger because we, had all of the summer and, you know, the fall and the big harvest of the fall to prepare for the cold winter. And so we had an abundance of things. And we would also just come together, play games, elders, it would be a time for elders to share stories with the youth.

00;18;07;20 - 00;18;14;04
Talia Landry
As you know, their parents were making clothes for the winter and so on and so forth.

00;18;14;06 - 00;19;03;24
Jerry Lassos
Very well put, both of you. And so similar. With my tribe and the other tribes of Southern California, which celebrate what we call them. And it's a gathering and a celebration related to harvest and the sharing amongst the cultures, the similarities and the beliefs and the passing on of, culture, language, joy, thankfulness. Gratitude for surviving the season and looking forward and, supporting each other as, of course, the seasons aren't as brutal in Southern California, but, yes, that, just celebration of being together, of, surviving, passing on heritage to our youth.

00;19;03;26 - 00;19;31;09
Rev. Will Mebane
So to all of you, I appreciate, appreciate, what each of you has said. I just want to comment on, what you said about Americans having one day of the year when they focus specifically on giving thanks. In my tradition, which is the Christian tradition, we say that, we should give thanks always, that, the divine expects us to give thanks always with each.

00;19;31;09 - 00;20;00;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Not just with each day, but with each moment that, we are breathing and living. And I try to subscribe to that and maybe, maybe it's because I have some indigenous heritage. My mom, from North Carolina, had, her great, great great grandmother, if I'm remembering correctly, and was of the Cherokee Nation. So it's there's some, native blood in me as well.

00;20;00;18 - 00;20;24;20
Rev. Will Mebane
I want to go back to the, comments that were made by our folks on the street. As one of them said, and this may be I think I've, I got heard a little different opinion from, our panel today. So I'd love you to weigh in more on this that, Thanksgiving Porsay. Is it sell itself is not racist.

00;20;24;23 - 00;20;53;04
Rev. Will Mebane
It's not a racist. Holiday. But what's happened is how it has been misappropriated. As we were just talking about the celebrations where I've been misappropriating and the narrative has just become, so romanticized, right, that, there's this, teaching that I had as a child that, it was a just a great big old party.

00;20;53;07 - 00;21;23;11
Rev. Will Mebane
And the natives and the pilgrims just sat down, and they just had, a big fun time. And to celebrate their cooperation, their collaboration with with one another. So, Julie, I heard you say that you don't say Happy Thanksgiving, and it's not a holiday that you and others, don't celebrate. But I thought I heard Talia and Gerry saying, well, there's nothing inherently racist about it, so I say more, if you would.

00;21;23;14 - 00;21;32;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Let's start with you, Julie, about why you feel it's not to be a celebrated for you, the Thanksgiving.

00;21;32;20 - 00;22;04;04
Julianne Vanderhoop
You know, I think that, you know, just because really, Here, you know, a lot of what I do is spread who I am through what I do. My bakery of the outside, it has a woodfired outside oven. And I tell people every day that, you know, this is why we come here. You know, it's not.

00;22;04;10 - 00;22;38;29
Julianne Vanderhoop
You know, some people come because they want to see the stars. They want to see Robert Redford. Michael J. Fox or somebody else. But I said, for me, waking up and going to this oven, which is outside and I, I can see the sunrise on the left side and I can see the moon rise on the right side that evening, and it takes away, the, the weight of my work, which often is long and hard.

00;22;39;01 - 00;23;06;27
Julianne Vanderhoop
But I am thankful to be where I am at the at that moment. And the example of where I'm standing is a reminder to everyone, which is, a very special place for my people. It's called black Brook. And through the water, in the springs that run to this property and the smoke, it's said that our ancestors are close.

00;23;06;29 - 00;23;41;12
Julianne Vanderhoop
And so I can I am honored to be here to, what I do and to do good work. My bakery is also run on an honor system, which, even as people came in today and they couldn't get, the, their phones to send, money through a cash app, I said go. And when you get into service, send it back, because it's, an honor system stand.

00;23;41;12 - 00;24;12;03
Julianne Vanderhoop
And it's the honor is that I'm trusting you. I want to share my world with people. And I've been lucky enough to do this for 14 years. I, you know, from a point where my son said, well, what if you we come home and there's nothing there's all me know all of the day's work is gone and we don't have any anything.

00;24;12;06 - 00;24;48;06
Julianne Vanderhoop
And I said, you know, every day we try and we'll get up and we'll do it again because that's who we are. And without that type of thought, we would not be here. So this is, you know, and I, I honestly believe that, you know, the 14 years that I've worked from this 12 by 16ft bakery, we have won a, you know, acknowledgment from around the world because it's very unique.

00;24;48;08 - 00;25;15;06
Julianne Vanderhoop
But that's who we are, and I'm trying to lead from it. You know, we bakers are not wealthy people. They're just hard workers and and hopefully happy. But, I, I have to, give something to my community every day. And this is how I do it. And, you know, it's it it has it has worked for me.

00;25;15;06 - 00;25;25;16
Julianne Vanderhoop
And, I've found that it gives me a lot to, to live off of wellness.

00;25;25;19 - 00;25;45;23
Rev. Will Mebane
Very profound. Comments there. Julie. Thank you. Let me ask, Talia and and and Jerry. Are you having a big Thanksgiving feast? Are you going to enjoy some turkey and, trimmings or what are you going to do on Thanksgiving?

00;25;45;26 - 00;26;14;00
Talia Landry
Well, personally, this year, I'm actually fasting the day of Thanksgiving until, the sun sets or, you know, goes down, and then I will be able to eat. But, I think each year it's depending on, like, what either I've been through that year or what I've learned or what I've had to overcome, that I choose of how I'm going to celebrate this, Americanized holiday.

00;26;14;02 - 00;26;38;10
Talia Landry
Because like I said before, I don't necessarily might not see it as racist, but it's still it's still not culturally appropriate to myself. So it's not something that, you know, I'm always gung ho about. And I don't go around saying Happy Thanksgiving, but it is, something that I do. I can appreciate America at least trying and starting somewhere, to be thankful for something.

00;26;38;13 - 00;27;02;09
Talia Landry
It does get a little bit misconstrued, I guess. Because when we're only being thankful one day of the year where we're forgetting what to be thankful for every day, and it seems like you end up being thankful for the abundance of things or, you know, little, bigger things rather than the little things. So, I guess that's the way that I look at it or portray it.

00;27;02;09 - 00;27;34;16
Talia Landry
So it's always depending on like how I feel and how where my, I guess where my roots or my bloods are, are making me feel like in this year it just with, you know, it being like everybody is like the hoopla about, you know, 400 years since, the Mayflower and stuff like that. And it's very somber for me and it's, it's it's it's, it's hard, I think it's hard to get through because we, we still remember, we still carry that trauma and we still feel things that we have.

00;27;34;16 - 00;27;53;24
Talia Landry
We don't know why or we don't know where they came from or, you know, necessarily, but we just feel them. And being a native person in America is so hard. And just growing through that intergenerational trauma and growing like some years, I'm just so mad at Thanksgiving. Other years I don't care. And then it's it's it's difficult. It's very different.

00;27;53;24 - 00;28;19;19
Talia Landry
And I think it's so important for America to know that too, and to just acknowledge that, that even if, you know, you appreciate, Native Americans and what they have done for you to even be here on American soil and to create this country that has been created, that, we're still dealing with things and we still have to sit there and either, pick and choose what we adopt from the American culture because this is our land.

00;28;19;19 - 00;28;42;00
Talia Landry
Like, we we don't have anywhere to go home to, like European colonizers and stuff like this is our homeland. So when you came or when the colonizers came and created a whole new American culture and had us be assimilated into that, now we have to differentiate at the same time with carrying our ancestors and their their traumas and becoming whole and being okay.

00;28;42;00 - 00;28;54;01
Talia Landry
So if you if if we can just get to that understanding, then I think it, the racist part of any part of Thanksgiving could be a little bit die down and we can just appreciate each other more and just be more understanding.

00;28;54;04 - 00;28;55;04
Jerry Lassos
So.

00;28;55;07 - 00;29;51;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Well said. Wow. Well, say, you know, you mentioned the trauma. And that resonated with me as a African-American male. I was remembering that just recently, the American Medical Association, now identifies, you know, racism as a, as a coded, condition as a by that, I mean, it it can now, physicians now are going to be asked to, treat racism and treat the, the trauma that Bipoc and black indigenous people of color, experience, which is a major step forward, I think, in recognizing, what you were sharing, Charlie, about the trauma because, again, as a black male, I, I carry with me on a literally daily basis,

00;29;51;16 - 00;29;59;12
Rev. Will Mebane
if not hourly basis. So thank you for that. Jerry. What what the big plate of, leftovers for you for Thanksgiving?

00;29;59;15 - 00;30;21;23
Jerry Lassos
Nope. Not this year. And it's primarily because of the pandemic. We were out here because my daughter is close by, but I think this year we've agreed to, we're going to, just stay within our homes. Usually it's a pretty big celebration, but more so for the gathering and not so much for the tradition of Thanksgiving.

00;30;21;25 - 00;30;51;04
Jerry Lassos
If I could touch upon a couple of things, I think, Julie put it so well. And that is the idea of place. I think most of us really feel grounded and feel, very much a part of the big picture when we think of place, not only geographical place, but our place within history, our place within our people, our place within our families.

00;30;51;07 - 00;31;20;29
Jerry Lassos
And you did a beautiful job, talking about how important it is for you to do what you do generally. And I think that that speaks to that idea of place. You're doing something that's very fulfilling because it contributes to not only our past, our present, but also our future. And as far as, you know, the, historical trauma, Rev and tell you, you both put it, it's within us.

00;31;21;01 - 00;31;50;26
Jerry Lassos
It's how deep that is. I mean, it affected our communities, our tribes, our people, our families, but we carry it with us and every day. And, I think that kind of deep pain and suffering, we need to go through the healing process. We need to bring our youth to understand that, it's a part of who they are, but they can rise above it.

00;31;50;29 - 00;32;10;05
Jerry Lassos
They can achieve whatever they believe they can achieve. And we need to do all we can to support them. But we are survivors. We are here. And, we will be here for the long term as well. And hopefully our future is just as bright as anyone else's, if not more so.

00;32;10;07 - 00;32;43;23
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, again, I resonate so deeply with what you shared. Jerry, you know, I, I say all the time that all of the the social ills that exist in, you know, my community, in the black community, whether it be whether it be dysfunctional families or addiction or, poverty or whatever, can be traced all the way back to the transatlantic slave trade goes all the way back to that.

00;32;43;27 - 00;33;10;29
Rev. Will Mebane
That's not that's not just that didn't just happen. You know, it's the result of the trauma that, a community of people, had to endure and are still enjoying. So I'm, I'm going to give and your chance to, to get in because I'm sure she's chomping at the bit here and, maybe want to go to our our next question, but, Onjale, I'll hand it off to you.

00;33;11;01 - 00;33;32;05
Onjale Scott Price
No, that was, listening to all of you speak. Is really puts me, puts me in a place to really reflect a lot more, reflect on the land that I'm on. I'm on unceded territory in East Falmouth. And to reflect on where my place is, amongst the culture of, of the indigenous people here.

00;33;32;07 - 00;33;49;19
Onjale Scott Price
So I don't I don't know if I have anything specifically to comment on. What you all said, and I'm just still thinking about it and taking it in and, appreciating what you say. I do have a question that I thought about, Talia, when you were talking about sometimes Thanksgiving, you're just, like, really angry about the whole idea.

00;33;49;19 - 00;34;05;08
Onjale Scott Price
And, I'm wondering, do you tell your or any of you, ever participate in a day of mourning? And could you could you talk a little bit about what that is? And if you do or don't celebrate it, why or why not?

00;34;05;11 - 00;34;30;19
Talia Landry
I guess I can start, I actually have been trying to make it a point to get down to Plymouth for the National Day of Mourning, but I haven't yet, so I can't comment necessarily on the Plymouth celebrations. But I've definitely practice the, day of mourning. And I've done it. Done so here in Mashpee. Whether it be, you know, in my own backyard or, on 55 and, on our traditional ceremonial lands that is on our reservation.

00;34;30;21 - 00;34;54;07
Talia Landry
And, I know I at least experiencing it with other people. It, within Mashpee, it's it's a very, like, humbling experience and it's so it's so comfortable and it takes away that anger and it doesn't turn it into sadness. It kind of turns it into more of like a gratitude and humbleness that we're here because even just, you know, I mean, looking in the mirror every day is amazing.

00;34;54;07 - 00;35;16;18
Talia Landry
But looking at, you know, other tribal members and, just being on the same land like that resonates so, so much within us. And, I think coming together on that day specifically and choosing it to mourn together and to, at the same time laugh together and share stories and either break bread or not and just be around the fire.

00;35;16;24 - 00;35;45;28
Talia Landry
It's so comforting. And it's it's important. And I think it's important in any, native person's life to at least experience it once or try, and especially if they're confused about how to handle Thanksgiving, because I think that was the first time that I ever, you know, participated. And it was when I was, like you said, like I was at a point where, like, I've been angry for so long and I just didn't know how to handle it because, even in like, my, my family were very modernized.

00;35;45;28 - 00;36;08;06
Talia Landry
They're very modernized. We're not they're not as traditional. So I learned more of my traditional, ways through my mentors and stuff through the tribe. So, like Jerry was saying, it's so important for us to acknowledge youth and teach them and bring them in because there's certain things that they're going through that they can't understand. And that they're angry about.

00;36;08;13 - 00;36;30;28
Talia Landry
And if we give them that sort of like option, then it might be a way for them to release it. And that's what National Day of Mourning did for me at least within my own territory. But I hope someone could speak about Plymouth, because I hear a lot of good things, at least in the recent years, and how it actually transformed from when it originated to now.

00;36;31;01 - 00;36;52;29
Onjale Scott Price
So thinking about what something that Reverend Will said about us as black people carrying certain traumas as well, I wonder what something like a national day of mourning would do for the black community. Now, the black community, very much like the indigenous and and native groups, are very, very diverse. I think there's another common misconception that all native people are pretty much the same.

00;36;52;29 - 00;37;11;01
Onjale Scott Price
All indigenous groups live the same way before the colonizers arrived and still live the same way, you know, from from Los Angeles to Massachusetts. And we know that's not correct. And I think in the same way black people get put in the same bubble, like black people in the South act just like black people in the Midwest and so on.

00;37;11;03 - 00;37;28;28
Onjale Scott Price
So I wonder what that would do for either pockets of black people in different parts of the country, or black people as a whole community. And it might be something, something for us to try as well, if we can kind of get some of our, our mourning and our our anger out in that way.

00;37;29;00 - 00;38;09;11
Jerry Lassos
I think it's a very good suggestion, a, national day of mourning healing, because we still carry so many opportunities. Reverend, you mentioned it. So many of us, and now even immigrants come, you know, and they're. And the way they're treated, there really needs to be healing. I was very hopeful that, the turn of the millennium, we might be able to turn a page, you know, and say, let's move forward and leave some of these things in the past, racism and hatred and, bias and those kinds of things.

00;38;09;11 - 00;38;35;07
Jerry Lassos
So maybe that a call for a national day of mourning and possibly even another day, a national day of healing, so that we can begin that process to, leave some of these things in the past because we face many challenges in the future, and one of them is going to have to be to coexist and to have a deeper level of understanding of all cultures.

00;38;37;23 - 00;38;40;05
Julianne Vanderhoop
And I and can I.

00;38;40;05 - 00;38;43;23
Rev. Will Mebane
Add that, Julie, I see you I see you wanting to get in there. Come on.

00;38;43;29 - 00;39;44;11
Julianne Vanderhoop
I do, I just wanted to say that, here on the vineyard, we've been recognizing this movement. A lot of people have come to unite. And, today was actually the last of our of our gatherings, and we've been kneeling, public space that's been offered up and we've been kneeling to say, people's stories that have been, you know, their lives have been taken and, and telling their stories and throughout history, how how wrong these people what they were doing when they gave their life and how wrongly they were taken away from our, from life, our lives.

00;39;44;13 - 00;40;15;04
Julianne Vanderhoop
And so we've been kneeling for eight minutes and 46 seconds and I it it it's been a very profound, movement. It's been going on here for almost, six months now. And, we're really working on, continuing it with changes to, lesson plans and, you know, the there's so much going on.

00;40;15;07 - 00;40;46;17
Julianne Vanderhoop
And as for myself, I finally figured out a way to communicate this movement to people that don't understand it, that might want to move away from it. And when I put a cookie in a cookie box and it said, say their names, and we've been shouting their names, but someone came in and actually today and they said, say their names.

00;40;46;17 - 00;41;12;14
Julianne Vanderhoop
And I could hear them in the and they didn't quite get it. It's in a holiday cookie box. And I said, yeah, I wanted to bring people an awareness of good things that have happened. So this cookie is made it into the cookie boxes because equality, we're hoping, will come for all. And this is going in as a good thing.

00;41;12;16 - 00;42;01;27
Julianne Vanderhoop
I've had people on both sides that have said to my workers, my assistants, you should quit. I'm not going to buy that cookie. What? You know, that shouldn't even be allowed in it. You know, I was in this person was a friend of is a friend of mine. But we need to bring these people around. And, you know, it's if they understand the stories, the heartbreaking stories, of the people that have passed for, for no little to no reason for the longest time, the, you know, then they would listen, then they would listen.

00;42;02;00 - 00;42;31;06
Julianne Vanderhoop
And it's not to be feared. It's to be studied. It's to be talked about and it's to be brought forward and carried with us. I have a, here on the vineyard with my tribe. It's very hard because I haven't seen any other members of our community out to do this. And I and I just think that that shows how traumatized we are.

00;42;31;08 - 00;43;10;16
Julianne Vanderhoop
And I've been out there, working with reparations groups and trying to, allow people to work on speaking, work on our voices instead of hiding and, and fearing the emotions that this brings up because we are very sensitive people and it's it's very hard and I, I actually, I, I think all the time, man, I'm going to need some therapy because because it's a lot it's a lot.

00;43;10;21 - 00;43;14;23
Julianne Vanderhoop
And we have a big responsibility moving forward.

00;43;14;26 - 00;43;26;02
Rev. Will Mebane
But Julie, I just got to tell you, I had a chance to participate in one of the, vigils for 846 and show Mark.

00;43;26;05 - 00;43;26;28
Onjale Scott Price
You know, nice.

00;43;27;01 - 00;44;09;26
Rev. Will Mebane
About the three weekends of four weekends ago. And, I couldn't believe when I heard about it that you all at that point, have been every day at 1030, at the I recall the public library there. Yes. Kneeling for 846 and having speakers and what have you. So, even though you are ending your vigils, I want you to know that we have been inspired here in Falmouth, because now a group of clergy and the, No Place for hate group here in Falmouth is now meeting every Sunday.

00;44;09;26 - 00;44;24;03
Rev. Will Mebane
It's not every day, but every Sunday at noon for a vigil, kneeling for eight minutes and 46 seconds. And that was inspired by what I saw being done in Chilmark.

00;44;24;05 - 00;44;24;11
Jerry Lassos
Yes.

00;44;24;13 - 00;44;30;05
Onjale Scott Price
So I love that that's that's encouraging that that's really encouraging.

00;44;30;08 - 00;44;35;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Your, your your work, your, your efforts have a ripple, have had a ripple effect.

00;44;35;17 - 00;44;36;15
Onjale Scott Price
Yes.

00;44;36;18 - 00;44;41;03
Rev. Will Mebane
So Onji, I think we'd better go to our second question because we we could continue on.

00;44;41;03 - 00;44;42;08
Onjale Scott Price
This could go on forever.

00;44;42;15 - 00;44;42;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Right.

00;44;42;29 - 00;44;44;09
Onjale Scott Price
So, yeah.

00;44;44;11 - 00;44;47;22
Rev. Will Mebane
What do you want to introduce us to the second question.

00;44;47;24 - 00;45;03;03
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. So our second question is how should we locally in the Commonwealth and across the nation, best acknowledge and celebrate the accomplishments of indigenous people? So we'll we'll hear a few things from the people on the street, and then we'll come back to discuss.

00;45;04;02 - 00;45;46;05
Matt Liles
It's it's hard for me to act like what I have to say about that matters very much. I think if you're trying to amend a situation, obviously we'll never fully amend what happens to indigenous peoples. When white settlers came here, or white settlers did to, Africans. But if you're trying to amend such intense injustices as those, I think that that really has to start with listening to the voices of those communities when they're telling you how to do it.

00;45;46;08 - 00;46;07;16
Matt Liles
So I think if we're looking for ways to figure out, okay, how do we celebrate and acknowledge indigenous communities? I think item A has to be to just listen more intently when those voices are telling us what they need and what they think should be celebrated and, where we're coming short.

00;46;07;18 - 00;46;33;05
Andre Price
So I think first off, we have to recognize that we're on unceded land. The transition to how we how this area came to be, is not was not as smooth as we were led to believe as as children. And what we may have heard in the past, we live in a time where technology is, is literally at our fingertips and we can look these things up.

00;46;33;08 - 00;47;00;03
Andre Price
I think it's imperative that we read and learn the, true history of of Thanksgiving. I also think that we should discontinue this romanticized tale of, of Thanksgiving and, you know, learn our true history, learn the true history of Thanksgiving, and not just what we've seen on the Charlie Brown Thanksgiving specials.

00;47;00;05 - 00;47;38;27
Onjale Scott Price
So we've just heard from a couple people on the street. And one thing I thought was interesting was one of the one of the gentleman mentioned unceded land, that we are on unceded land. And I know that I've seen recently a an interest in people making land acknowledgments. So whether that be in their emails saying that the place of my work is on unceded territory of name of indigenous tribe, or I know at one point in Woods Hole, we were we were doing pretty good on at the beginning of any of our events, acknowledging that we were on unceded Wampanoag territory.

00;47;38;27 - 00;48;02;22
Onjale Scott Price
And I have to admit that at some point we forgot and just didn't do it. So I'd like to to hear a little bit about your thoughts on the acknowledgment and what it would actually mean to acknowledge that we are on unceded territory, rather than just saying that we are on unceded territory. What does that what would that mean?

00;48;02;25 - 00;48;36;08
Jerry Lassos
I think it honors honors our ancestors, honors. The people that are still here, honors their contributions. It's respectful, more and more to any kind of gathering, whether it be online or the different conferences I go to. There is typically an acknowledgment of the native or indigenous people whose land we occupy at that particular moment, and that's how we begin in particular, you know, meeting or, conference.

00;48;36;11 - 00;48;45;01
Jerry Lassos
And I think that is, just a way of honor and respect to those who came first.

00;48;45;04 - 00;48;58;12
Onjale Scott Price
So we think that it's something that we should encourage more groups to do and encourage people to, to think about and and to acknowledge. And like you said, in every aspect of life.

00;48;58;14 - 00;49;28;05
Jerry Lassos
One more thing. I'm sorry. One more thing is, yes, as I've gone to a couple of meetings with the local school districts and they've both begun doing the land acknowledgment at the beginning of the opening of meetings. And I find that very, very, encouraging. And they actually have, a picture of some, beautiful areas with a welcoming in Wampanoag language.

00;49;28;05 - 00;49;38;13
Jerry Lassos
And I think that's a wonderful, tradition to begin, both with Mashpee public Schools and found with public discourse are beginning that process.

00;49;38;15 - 00;49;43;11
Onjale Scott Price
Okay. That. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Talia, did you have some thoughts?

00;49;43;13 - 00;50;12;15
Talia Landry
Yeah, I was just going to say I think it's, just even acknowledging it. The acknowledgment of it is a great start for people in general, organizations and all that, but I think it does push a little bit further and, really educating yourself about those people of those lands, because I think in all, it would actually benefit everybody to learn more about the indigenous people of the land, that land that they occupy, because it might help them figure out more about themself and have self-awareness.

00;50;12;17 - 00;50;29;16
Talia Landry
And just for the land that they're living in and what history, what sort of history had to take place for them to even be able to be there? But I definitely do think it's it's a great start because for so long, I think natives or even native history in general has just been pushed aside because it's so traumatic.

00;50;29;16 - 00;50;56;18
Talia Landry
And it's and there's a lot of bad stuff that did happen that, you know, colonizers didn't want to acknowledge or really admit because it was either their ancestors and it wasn't them, per se. And, so I do think it is actually a great start, but there is definitely more than acknowledgment to, to push us further into, I think, where we need to be and in order to make a better society is in order for us to be able to understand each other and so.

00;50;56;18 - 00;51;00;14
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll go ahead. Julie.

00;51;00;16 - 00;51;26;18
Julianne Vanderhoop
No, I just I think tally is definitely on the right, track there. It's about, recognizing that this is an initial awareness and that there's further, you know, questions to be asked about how do we heal the wounds? And how do we recognize further? Always. So, yeah, this is just the beginning.

00;51;26;20 - 00;51;51;11
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So definitely the acknowledgment. And then, as you mentioned, educating and understanding the people whose land that we're on. So lead me to, to wonder. I'm currently reading a book called This Land Is There Land, written by David Silverman. And he's he says he's a white man. And it's an incredibly interesting and book full of just knowledge, just so much knowledge that I had no idea about.

00;51;51;18 - 00;52;16;10
Onjale Scott Price
But I also feel a bit conflicted that the story of the Wampanoags is told by someone who is not a member of the tribe. That the same time, is it appropriate for me to want the Wampanoag tribe members to relive their trauma for my education? And I think about this also in the context, as being a person of color on the cape in general.

00;52;16;10 - 00;52;37;13
Onjale Scott Price
There's there's some of us, but I am like the only black friend to I know many of my white friends here, and so I know I feel bogged down when they want to constantly ask me about my experience as a, as a person of color, as a black person. And so while I do feel sometimes I want to educate them, I want to give them my perspective.

00;52;37;13 - 00;53;05;28
Onjale Scott Price
I'm also tired and I'm like, there's things you can you can read about this. So, so I guess my, my question or my thought that I'd like to present is what is the balance between learning about an indigenous culture directly from the indigenous people? Like how appropriate is that versus reading, historical books or watching historical documentaries that were not produced by native people?

00;53;06;01 - 00;53;34;29
Julianne Vanderhoop
I think I think these are responsibilities. You know, if we do not allow people to digest the materials that people like Dr. David Silberman are, putting in print, and it's, really, I think he's, done some justice for us since it was not written to write about our history. As a professor at George Washington University.

00;53;34;29 - 00;54;20;24
Julianne Vanderhoop
And I think that the people in our communities who are who are wanting to carry and educate themselves and educate others in important ways, along with us, is an important tool about where we want this to go to. And finding that balance is so important because I really believe that we're storytellers, but we're not writers or we're not, you know, we just don't have often the platform and and that he is his platform to, create an awareness.

00;54;20;26 - 00;54;50;01
Julianne Vanderhoop
And I don't think he's doing it. In a, in a, in a way that he's bringing the light to himself. I think that he is, carrying it along side of the Wampanoag people. So that's interesting. And we say it differently because we have different accents on our Wampanoag that I was actually about to ask that because I.

00;54;50;01 - 00;54;56;27
Onjale Scott Price
I realize you seem to pronounce the A and the. Yes. So is it is it actually correct to say it both ways, or am I saying it wrong?

00;54;56;28 - 00;55;15;25
Julianne Vanderhoop
It is. There are many, points in, language that, the dialect is slightly different. And okay, the difference is it actually is a marker as to where we're from, whether whether we're from Mashpee or whether we're from, Martha's Vineyard.

00;55;15;29 - 00;55;18;06
Julianne Vanderhoop
So it's it's really kind of cool.

00;55;18;08 - 00;55;28;21
Onjale Scott Price
Interesting. So it seems like almost someone with, like, a southern accent versus somebody from New York, I think. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right.

00;55;28;24 - 00;55;57;00
Talia Landry
But a little bit I did want to comment on what you were saying because I understand kind of like the pressures and stuff when people ask like, oh, what do you feel? Because we get that all the time, especially during Thanksgiving or Columbus Day. I think one way to approach it, or that we could kind of be conscious about it, is not always picking those specific times to ask either native people or black people, you know, wait until February to ask them of certain histories or stuff like that, like we're here all year round, like everybody else.

00;55;57;00 - 00;56;20;17
Talia Landry
Like you can ask it in the midst of summer. You can ask it during other occasions that we're doing rather than like bombarding us all in this one month, because then we're just exhausted. And it's hard because we have this, like obligation to ourselves and our ancestors to educate people. But then we're exhausted at the same time. So and then you get a sort of like resentment because it's like, why are you asking you now?

00;56;20;17 - 00;56;41;09
Talia Landry
Why can't you ask me in a couple months when I'm not so tired or when the holidays aren't gone? Because guess what? We all, you know, might celebrate Christmas too, where we're getting presents and doing this and doing that because we're all American. So it's just I think it's like a conscious effort from everybody. Like it's it's, I'm grateful for the people that want to be educated, but I just wish that it did come.

00;56;41;16 - 00;56;54;18
Talia Landry
It was more genuine where it came from, you know, general understanding and not just around this time because, you know, that it might not be, politically correct or what, you know?

00;56;54;21 - 00;56;59;20
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Well, now I feel bad that we decided to do this this week.

00;56;59;22 - 00;57;03;11
Rev. Will Mebane
So we know that. Oh, so we're guilty too, right?

00;57;03;13 - 00;57;29;23
Jerry Lassos
As a nation? Yeah. As an educator, I find that our students are often put in that role when a topic comes up that relates to, Native Americans or Indigenous people, suddenly they find themselves in the spotlight. But what do you think? You know, as if they represent every single tribal member of all 570 plus tribes. So I think that's why as an educator, I think it's really important.

00;57;29;26 - 00;58;02;13
Jerry Lassos
It's important that we embed, native perspectives throughout the year and not just have, you know, American Indian Month or something like that. It's embedded throughout the curriculum. And so students see themselves in the curriculum and, it becomes more of a natural conversation within the context of what they're studying and not singled out as, you know, a representative of every group in the country, you know, every tribe.

00;58;02;15 - 00;58;15;12
Jerry Lassos
But I, I find students, often will share that they felt so uncomfortable because they were asked to, represent, you know, American Indians as such.

00;58;15;14 - 00;58;18;22
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Go ahead.

00;58;18;24 - 00;58;19;19
Onjale Scott Price
No. Go ahead.

00;58;19;22 - 00;58;40;23
Rev. Will Mebane
I say that. And that's why I've more recently begun to to turn down invitations to speak at places during Black History Month for the same reason. Right. As Tori was saying, Julian, you as well, I'm around, you know, the other 11 months as well. So, you know, reach out to me that. So we're getting close to the end of our, our time.

00;58;40;23 - 00;59;04;28
Rev. Will Mebane
But I wanted to get, your your reactions to one comment that, one of our on the street person made and that was, he said that we are never going to fully rectify what was done to indigenous and black peoples. I think he said in response to the question, you know, what should we be doing? What they know?

00;59;04;28 - 00;59;25;24
Rev. Will Mebane
How can we how can we acknowledge what was done and celebrate the contributions of indigenous peoples? So are we ever going to be able to rectify it? And how do you think we, aside from the education you've been talking about? How else do we rectify it?

00;59;25;26 - 01;00;01;13
Julianne Vanderhoop
We have to. We have to. This is this is what this movement is about. We bring equality. You know, I cannot say it. We can rectify it by bringing our people into the light. And every single, industry in, you know, in, in every single. If, you know, if there's a native person, then, you know, and there are chefs, then let's see what are what they're about.

01;00;01;13 - 01;00;41;21
Julianne Vanderhoop
That's, you know, let's give opportunity to the people that has not even yet even today been given, recognition to native artist in artistry and stories in, you know, just talking about it. We can we can for both indigenous interests and black cultures bring a light and we can if we try, if we educate in the right way, in positive light, we we we must.

01;00;41;21 - 01;00;47;28
Julianne Vanderhoop
Because this will not stop. And this is not going to go away.

01;00;48;00 - 01;00;51;13
Julianne Vanderhoop
Until we have equality.

01;00;51;15 - 01;01;20;29
Jerry Lassos
Well said. And I think it's important that, a Native American or an indigenous world view is important, to understand our contributions to science, for example, to understand from everything from the design of our homes to our connection to everything in the world, everything in the world, we live in a web. And you cannot dissect or isolate any part of that web without affecting the whole.

01;01;21;01 - 01;01;48;00
Jerry Lassos
And I think more and more Western scientists are starting to realize that, that they're coming to that, native perspective of thing. And I think the respect that we are one with nature, we are one with the seasons, and we are one in the big picture. So hopefully, that will go a long way towards understanding.

01;01;48;02 - 01;02;16;11
Talia Landry
Yeah. We can't undo what has been done in history, but we can definitely kind of rectify by just doing better and by being better and by bringing quality out and being the norm and educating, you know, American society about the indigenous people of this land. And then also the historical happenings that happened with informing America to every, society or every race that has come into this land and still happens to.

01;02;16;18 - 01;02;46;03
Talia Landry
So I think that's the way that we rectify, I guess, what has been done, but also be morally conscious as well when it comes into like whether it be like land suits or situations. Especially to do with land or resources that, you know, we're doing, we're handling them the right way or the people and, people in power are making the right decisions that will sort of rectify the things that have been done or actually being morally conscious of those things.

01;02;46;05 - 01;03;21;26
Talia Landry
And also just, like Julie was saying, with putting indigenous people to light, like, even though people are, just, Native Americans are busy during Thanksgiving, there are plenty that, you know, owned businesses that you can be buying from them. You could buy corn or rice and to be a part of your Thanksgiving meal and incorporate it in your Thanksgiving tradition that will actually celebrate and acknowledge native people and that they're still here and still thriving, and also acknowledge the fact of what they had to sacrifice in order for you and your ancestors to be here.

01;03;21;28 - 01;03;47;18
Onjale Scott Price
Wow, that was very beautifully said. I really like the idea of incorporating indigenous and native, work and businesses into, our traditions, whatever, whatever our tradition, may be. I think that is a excellent idea. So I think that is a great note to end on. I want to thank each of you, Jerry, Talia, Judy, for being here with us.

01;03;47;21 - 01;04;08;03
Onjale Scott Price
This is the kind of conversation that we want to continue, and we really hope that those watching will continue these conversations, not just this month, but throughout the year. And, I mean, even we have the work to do. We also have to think about when we decide to have these conversations, and how they how they may be affecting people in their lives.

01;04;08;05 - 01;04;22;11
Onjale Scott Price
So thank you all. Thank you to Deb and Allen from FCTV specifically for for helping us create the show, for making it happen. And we look forward to seeing you on the next conversation.