00:00:19:09 - 00:00:31:07
Onjalé Scott Price

00:00:31:09 - 00:00:57:17
Onjalé Scott Price
Welcome back to another episode of The Conversation. I am Angela Scott Price, and I am joined by my wonderful, illustrious, fantastic co-host, the Reverend Will Melvin. Yeah. That's you. I am so excited about today's show, because today we're going to be talking about something that is very near and dear to my heart. Actually, what brought me to Falmouth in the first place, talking about diversity in Stem.

00:00:57:19 - 00:01:23:00
Onjalé Scott Price
So Stem is science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And as we know, Stem is really important to our community here in Falmouth specifically. It's really important to our global economy. It's important to just everyone science, technology, engineering, math arguably is the basis of a lot of things that we do. And yet the Stem fields are not necessarily very diverse racially.

00:01:23:03 - 00:01:43:27
Onjalé Scott Price
Gender wise. The women are starting to add more to the to Stem careers, but still not nearly as dominated as men. And so what we're going to talk about today is diversity and Stem. So I'm really excited to get started. And we will go to our people on the street with our first question of why isn't there more diversity in the Stem fields?

00:01:44:00 - 00:01:52:24
Onjalé Scott Price
So let's hear what they have to say and get started in this really interesting conversation.

00:01:52:26 - 00:02:30:19
Gabriel Duran
In Stem, like like most other disciplines, has historically been a white man's field. And in many ways, it still is. If we look at the numbers, with current and recent research showing that, white people are earning PhDs in Stem at orders of magnitude higher or greater than underrepresented groups. However, with current conversations, it appears to be moving in the right direction, where we're discussing more on how to be anti-racist and starting to address these facts and these numbers on how to improve diversity in the field.

00:02:30:21 - 00:02:58:26
Gabriel Duran
But, you know, for me, I think it it really depends on, you know, time, time will tell whether these conversations are followed up by action. And I think right now the issue is more of a matter of relinquishment of power. You know, for for centuries, white people have been sitting comfortably at the top of the field, and now they must face the fact that they must share their power, their work, their science, with those who have historically been at the bottom.

00:02:58:28 - 00:03:34:16
Monet Murphy
I feel like in Stem education kind of remains stratified by race and PLCs are always at the bottom of, like, this weird hierarchy chain in the education system. And it's very hard to find opportunities. A lot of times I felt like I was being overlooked. A lot of times I felt like my male counterparts were getting the opportunities that I knew, that I can do, and it also felt like I had to again prove myself that I was worthy of a position in science.

00:03:34:18 - 00:04:04:09
Monet Murphy
And the greater the challenges we face, the harder it was to want to stay in that realm. A ton of historical practice have negatively affected POC students, including a lack of critical mass of Stem barriers in our departments. So yes, we had the racial and ethnic stereotyping. Yes, we had institutional barriers. And I kept witnessing a lot of my peers get out of Stem.

00:04:04:09 - 00:04:10:19
Monet Murphy
It it became something that while it was their dreams, it was no longer for them.

00:04:10:21 - 00:04:34:25
Onjalé Scott Price
Welcome back. We have just heard from our people on the street answering the question, why isn't there more diversity in the Stem fields? And while I could jump right into this and be and just take over the whole conversation, I'm not going to do that today. I'm very excited about the panelists that we have with us today. And so I'd like to start by introducing Catalina martinez, a very old friend of mine.

00:04:34:27 - 00:04:52:08
Onjalé Scott Price
I know Catalina, you work as the regional program manager for NOAA Ocean Exploration in Rhode Island, and you've been with Noah for over 20 years. But the capacity that I know you in is really, really pushing for Dei in Stem and really supporting the underrepresented students in Stem. And so I'm very excited to have you here with us.

00:04:52:08 - 00:05:01:03
Onjalé Scott Price
And I'd like to pass it over to you to either respond to the people on the streets or to answer the question yourself of why isn't there more diversity in the Stem fields?

00:05:01:05 - 00:05:37:10
Catalina Martinez
Well, Angie, thank you so much. And you know, back atcha for all the work you do in this realm, as well as well as the other esteemed colleagues we have on today. So excited to be here. Yeah. I think those two lovely individuals you spoke with, those two young folk who are in the trenches right now, you know, we know that the structure and function of the academic world, of the federal agencies who encompass, you know, so much of the Stem spaces, the legacy is not pretty, right?

00:05:37:16 - 00:06:16:19
Catalina Martinez
The legacy is of, you know, racism, anti-Blackness, the structure and function of it was created by and for the dominant culture, through extraction, harm inducing, you know, practices. And it's operating not that different today. Right. And it's operating as intended, which is there's lots of filters. And so what you and I and Ambrose and others work on a lot is really, trying to mitigate those barriers to entry, the barriers to finding, you know, success and persistence in these spaces.

00:06:16:19 - 00:06:32:29
Catalina Martinez
So even if you can get there, do you feel like you belong? And do you have any potential for advancement and persistence in that space? Right. So the structure and function of these spaces to me continues to operate as it was intended, which is keeping us out. You know, in very simple terms.

00:06:33:01 - 00:06:56:09
Onjalé Scott Price
You're absolutely right. I often hear people say, well, these systems, they're they're not working. They're broken. Well, actually, these systems are functioning very well. They're functioning exactly as they were intended to. And that's why we have to do things differently if we want things to change. Just because lately we keep doing the same thing, expecting different results. Someone once said that that's the definition of insanity.

00:06:56:12 - 00:07:14:14
Onjalé Scott Price
Yes. And that is why we are still here with the same, with the same issues. Because we keep doing the same things. Yeah. Doctor Jay, I'd like to pass it over to you or Ambrose is still it's still hard for me to just call him Ambrose. It's always been Doctor Gerald to me. Doctor jailed, retired of NOAA fisheries.

00:07:14:16 - 00:07:34:01
Onjalé Scott Price
Started as a fisheries biologist, worked his way up and ended his career as the director of academic programs, but definitely not the end of a career, just the end of the career at NOAA. But Doctor Gerald is still very involved with this at and still a champion for AI in Stem. So I'm really glad to have you as part of this conversation, doctor, today.

00:07:34:04 - 00:07:35:07
Ambrose Jearld
Thank you.

00:07:35:10 - 00:07:46:13
Onjalé Scott Price
Thank you. So I want to ask, do you want to comment on anything that Catalina has said or if you'd like to answer the question, why isn't there more diversity in the Stem fields?

00:07:46:16 - 00:08:24:09
Ambrose Jearld
Well, first I'd like to say, just for someone who may not know that NOAA stands for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Thank you. So that's the organization that Catalina and I, work I've worked for and and have retired from and, it's all around the country. As for the National Marine Fisheries Service is one of the services within NOAA, and there are other steward services, like the, weather service that probably most people may have heard about.

00:08:24:11 - 00:08:35:22
Ambrose Jearld
And then there's Nessus, which handles the national satellite data and what have you. And, and so,

00:08:35:25 - 00:09:36:24
Ambrose Jearld
I, we obviously do not have time in this setting to address that question adequately. And so we're Catalina has started is right on cue from my point of view. However, I would add that why we, why there is more diversity, in the Stem fields has a historical, context. And that context starts with the Western world denying that Africa was the place and cradle of civilization in the sense that before the Greeks, before the Romans, there were the Egyptians.

00:09:36:26 - 00:10:14:14
Ambrose Jearld
There were the Nubians, and there were how many centuries before the Greek philosophers that we hear about today showed up to learn from the libraries and from those who had already push forward? Everything from what is God? Who is God? How do we know that? And then what? And how does God reside in us? And we and God is see?

00:10:14:16 - 00:10:48:27
Ambrose Jearld
And so way back, I think was Asa Hilliard and I cannot recall the other author wrote a book, published a book, Stolen the Legacy. And that had to do with trying to set the stage for Western science and for the world about how the contributions of Africa and African people are being an intelligent people, a learned, a brilliant people, the whole world.

00:10:48:28 - 00:11:19:21
Ambrose Jearld
Since then has been about in many ways negating that, telling us that Africa and people of African descent and people with dark skin are not intelligent, and that civilization started with the Greeks and the Romans, and then the Europeans picked it up much later in many ways, that is the rest of Europe, so to say, as we know it today.

00:11:19:23 - 00:11:51:14
Ambrose Jearld
So I would say we are still living that legacy. And here in the United States, we're dealing with the legacy of slavery and slaves not being able to have an education or to be educated to even, you know, to contribute, their knowledge. But in addition to the slave, the free black was not allowed to have an education.

00:11:51:16 - 00:12:56:11
Ambrose Jearld
And every time they tried to educate themselves or build a system of education, violent groups of whites attacked them. And that violence from whites continues today. And they are that element of whites that practice psychological violence, physical violence, social violence. They act as a proxy for the learned, for the educated, for the genteel, for the gentleman, for the ladies that need not do not have to do that, but it's done in their name and with their complicity and see, and that violence is still meted out on black people today, and brown people and nonwhite people, that violence is meted out in the sense that we still have people who know how to behave

00:12:56:11 - 00:13:35:17
Ambrose Jearld
in many ways in a social setting, but their behavior is structured and designed to make sure that boys and girls that look like you and me and Will and Catalina and everyone know this, and all of a sudden, this, this, zoom session do not have open access to a quality education. We are still robbing our children of a quality education before first grade, before kindergarten.

00:13:35:19 - 00:14:08:15
Ambrose Jearld
And then we play the game at the level of the academy. Higher education. We can't find any. Or they don't have the skills or they don't have this. But they have sat there and protected the system and benefited from the system and advantage by the system. And so those of us in the workplace, like Noah, also contribute to.

00:14:08:17 - 00:14:50:02
Ambrose Jearld
The individuals from black and brown populations, from getting an adequate, adequate education or access to experiences. And the government, our government has participated and continues to participate in discrimination and structural systems, and have structures in place that those leaders that have the big paying jobs and opposed to have led us through this a long time ago, are never and never have been held accountable.

00:14:50:05 - 00:15:08:16
Ambrose Jearld
And they still are not held accountable. So I'll stop right there because and so we don't have time to really adequately address this question, but maybe we should pick up what Catalina, brought us in terms of what we're doing right now.

00:15:08:18 - 00:15:28:03
Onjalé Scott Price
Oh, you're absolutely right. We we really don't have enough time. We are. We are just going to be scratching the surface of this today. But I thank you for for all of your thoughts, doctor Jane. And it makes me think of a lot of different things. And I'm thinking about what, Monet said about people not feeling people of color, not feeling they belong in Stem.

00:15:28:03 - 00:16:02:24
Onjalé Scott Price
And that really goes back to a lot of what you just said, doctor J, is that the systems are not built for people of color to belong and to feel comfortable and it makes it that much more difficult when you don't have the education and you don't have the structural support to be able to be successful in Stem and, you know, the other thing that you mentioned was, people saying they can't find qualified people of color for Stem, and that is one thing that really grinds my gears, because people don't look, you ask them, well, okay, there's you can't find these people.

00:16:02:24 - 00:16:24:10
Onjalé Scott Price
Where are you looking? And they're looking at the same place they've always been looking where they haven't gotten these people before. It's like, well, again, you're doing the same thing. You're perpetuating the same systems that you say, you know, we're not working, but you're not trying any systems that might work or proven systems that do work. And so part of why there's not as much diversity in Stem is because the people who hold that power don't want more diversity in Stem.

00:16:24:10 - 00:16:39:24
Onjalé Scott Price
They're not actively engaging the groups of people that would diversify Stem. Okay. Yeah. Let me let me pass it off to Reverend before I keep going. Reverend. Well, what what are your thoughts on what's been discussed so far?

00:16:39:26 - 00:17:04:11
Rev. Will Mebane
No, I wanted you to keep going and, you know, Amen. Amen. So this is your area, Angie. And I was so glad when we decided to do the show on this, because I knew you would be fired up and raring to go, and, you are. And so I want you to get as much airtime during this show as you want.

00:17:04:13 - 00:17:09:18
Rev. Will Mebane
But as I was listening to Catalina and, doctor gonna start calling him doctor J. Yeah.

00:17:09:21 - 00:17:09:28
Onjalé Scott Price
But.

00:17:09:28 - 00:17:36:00
Rev. Will Mebane
Right, I like that, I like that, you know, first of all, thank you for, explaining to our audience, and to me, what Noah is. I thought those were the weather folks. I, you know, you talk about fishing and other stuff, and I thought, oh, okay. So I appreciate I appreciate that education. One of the things I was thinking about it, since that's a governmental agency.

00:17:36:07 - 00:18:10:17
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. And I was like, okay, so as a governmental agency, certainly this governmental agency would not be committed to continuing to perpetuate, a racist system that would exclude people of color. So perhaps, it's unfair, but we I'm certainly not surprised when I hear that a commercial enterprise, a for profit entity, is discriminating against folks or denying opportunity to people of color.

00:18:10:20 - 00:18:33:02
Rev. Will Mebane
But as I was listening to you, I was thinking, well, this so this is happening in the government as well. So I guess my question to Catalina and to you, Ambrose, is I think I know the answer, but I want to hear what you have to say. Why?

00:18:33:05 - 00:18:37:21
Catalina Martinez
Doctor J, do you want me to start us off? I mean, again, there's.

00:18:37:21 - 00:18:38:25
Gabriel Duran

00:18:38:27 - 00:18:39:24
Catalina Martinez
Back there.

00:18:39:26 - 00:18:41:23
Ambrose Jearld
Sure, sure. I mean.

00:18:41:26 - 00:18:43:16
Catalina Martinez
So much so,

00:18:43:19 - 00:19:13:24
Ambrose Jearld
Let's, Yeah, you know, I'm retired. I don't think they'll take my check back. Okay. And you are still in. You still, you know, you're still in the fight and you're still working, and and I know from experience that one has to be sagacious. And take that into consideration, because you have to work with people and you want to get things done.

00:19:13:27 - 00:19:26:24
Ambrose Jearld
So, there may be things that I can say that you can't say. So at this time wouldn't be wise for you to, maybe, be as forceful.

00:19:26:26 - 00:19:52:08
Catalina Martinez
No, you are absolutely right. And, you know, in a federal space, you have a workforce, right? So we have the challenges and barriers of all workforces in terms of diversifying them. But also we, you know, provide support to other institutions, agencies, groups, individuals to do this work. A lot of what NOAA does is, is granting, right.

00:19:52:08 - 00:20:27:04
Catalina Martinez
They have grants, they have opportunities. They create these, you know, centers of excellence, cooperative institutes, cooperative science centers, things like that. Right. So there's a lot that goes into a federal agency supporting a Stem enterprise. And there are issues, challenges, barriers and opportunities in each one of those spaces. And, you know, you hear the metaphor often, and I'm, I'm guilty of using it myself in the past, the leaky pipeline, you know, and that, you know, that you're losing people from diverse backgrounds.

00:20:27:04 - 00:21:01:26
Catalina Martinez
The further and further you move through the academic system, the further and further you move up in the workforce and leadership ranks right in all of these arenas. And the power structure and those with influence leadership, you know, power to make decisions. They're less and less diverse and completely not diverse at the top. Right. So that leaky pipeline metaphor is so flawed because it assumes a passive system is losing us, that that we're falling out of the system.

00:21:01:26 - 00:21:28:20
Catalina Martinez
They use the terms that like we've fallen through the cracks. We know that's not true. And so what is so important, I think, is, you know, finally, some of our colleagues just published a very powerful paper that replaces that metaphor with a hostile obstacle course, because we know that there are systemic and individual, you know, obstacles to our not only entry into these systems, but persistence, advancement and success.

00:21:28:20 - 00:21:53:16
Catalina Martinez
And they're complicated because in a lot of ways, they're not perceived as problems by the dominant culture because they're created by and for them. So you're not going to see something as basic as, say, it, an application requirement, that is two letters of recommendation from a professor. By the time say you're a sophomore in college, you're not going to see that as a problem.

00:21:53:16 - 00:22:18:09
Catalina Martinez
If you come from the cultural capital, the networks, you know, the political capital, the the structure and function of a dominant culture, you know, family of means. You don't see that as a barrier, right? But somebody, you know, from from my particular background, I mean, that's when I by the time I was a sophomore, you know, I was probably in my late 20s, I was working full time.

00:22:18:09 - 00:22:39:15
Catalina Martinez
I barely make relationships with my professors because I'm too busy doing other things. Yeah, I can get the grade, but I got to go to work and I'm taking care of my family or whatever it is. So I don't have that traditional, you know, college experience. I didn't get to embrace that academic, you know, ivory tower, maybe the way that my dominant culture peers had.

00:22:39:15 - 00:23:11:02
Catalina Martinez
So when I see something like that, it's a red flag for me as a barrier to entry for us. So there's so many complicated challenges like that that need to be reimagined. But you can't reimagine something you don't understand. You have to have the right people at the table for co-creation. As we reimagine the structure and function of these institutions, these spaces, these entry points, these advancement potential, opportunities for high value opportunities, right.

00:23:11:05 - 00:23:25:18
Catalina Martinez
And we have to help our next generation get to positions of leadership influence power, because that's going to be the the shift in the culture that's needed for this reimagining really to occur. I believe in large scale.

00:23:25:20 - 00:23:42:12
Rev. Will Mebane
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait wait wait wait. So we had a black man that was the head of the government. What are you talking about? We got to wait to get more people to. He was the pipe. He was at the end of the pipe. He was, I know I'm how.

00:23:42:12 - 00:24:08:19
Catalina Martinez
Lucky we were. I mean, you know how lucky we were to have the Obamas there for eight years? My goodness. And I'll tell you right now, with the Biden-Harris administration, doors are being flung wide open that I did not see even under Obama. Okay, so we had the Trump era. We know, what what happened during that time period and that we are experiencing the legacy of that now globally.

00:24:08:21 - 00:24:37:07
Catalina Martinez
But right now, our current administration, they have I don't even know how many dozens and dozens of executive orders that come out of the white House with a laser focus on justice and equity in ways I don't think anyone has ever really put into put on paper. Right. So not only is this administration speaking the way we need them to speak, but they are holding all their federal spaces accountable.

00:24:37:10 - 00:25:15:03
Catalina Martinez
So there are accountability measures, not only, for, you know, diversity, but equity, inclusion and justice, which means leveling the playing field, doing equity assessments and being accountable to those mandates. So it's it's a very different environment right now. It could be a very narrow window of opportunity. So we continuously have to keep having these conversations, doing the work and pushing, as Ambrose, you know, pointed out in subversive ways, maybe, but we have to continue to do this work because the opportunity is on the table right now.

00:25:15:05 - 00:26:04:22
Ambrose Jearld
Yeah. And, I, would say that if I had to bet, I would pick up on what you say, your Catalina, that it's a window of opportunity. But if another regime comes in after this one, we go back to business as usual. And even under this administration. And what is going on in the government, in education, in business, you name it, we still have leadership that's in power, was in power before this government, this, this, party or whatever.

00:26:04:22 - 00:26:51:07
Ambrose Jearld
However you want to put it. And they will be there after. And they are the gatekeepers. They are the ones who maintain the structural system. That is where equity is not obvious. Is it practice necessarily where discrimination continues to go? Well and it goes on quietly, you see. And that is what that is the momentum, the undercurrent, the current that we are still is what's the that puts in his book Swimming Against you see.

00:26:51:10 - 00:27:21:24
Ambrose Jearld
And that is that is what is so insidious from my point of view. We have the government, for example, if we just deal with an institute, an outfit like Noah, and you have, housing authorities that get to make the personal decision of who is hard and who isn't, or who gets a promotion and who does not get a promotion.

00:27:21:27 - 00:27:58:22
Ambrose Jearld
And so far, well, we have the executive orders, that can come down. We still have those individuals sitting there waiting out the system, you see, and not participating and continuing to cause the drag. And that is what. And we will reward them. They do not get punished. They are not moved out of the way. They are simply, what is the word I'm looking for?

00:27:58:24 - 00:28:33:09
Ambrose Jearld
They are they're accepted. See? And there is no expectation out of them and no accountability. So they use the old carts. You know, we can't find any. I don't know any. Or give me some more training or let's talk about implicit bias or let's talk about, personal, interests around the subject of Dei and what have you.

00:28:33:11 - 00:29:10:26
Ambrose Jearld
But let's not touch the system, the structure that is there long after an individual has been and left the system. Let's see. And that is what we're dealing with from my point of view. You know, I started with Noah in 1977, and quite frankly, Noah's no more, diverse in terms of the numbers percentage wise today. As a matter of fact, it's probably less than it was over a good portion of my tenure with Noah.

00:29:10:29 - 00:29:42:26
Ambrose Jearld
And that's because we have clever leaders who are able to keep the heat off of themselves and have no accountability for carrying out any of the strategic plans or any of the executive orders, other than know how to cover their behind. At the time and support each other through memo memos, what have you, and make it look like they're doing something clean by what?

00:29:42:26 - 00:30:19:27
Ambrose Jearld
But but at the same time, it's still dirty. You see. And that's where I contend that, is is is is the is is the area that keeps us from diversifying because, you you, me, our network, our, our tentacles. So to say, we know that there are people out there with the potential, with the credentials, with the credibility to work for Noah in places like Noah.

00:30:19:29 - 00:30:43:24
Ambrose Jearld
But we do not have the hiring authority to hire those people. It's left up to those people who have used every thing they can in the toolbox to say, you're not quite good enough, or we have somebody else in mind that we think would do a better job for us.

00:30:43:27 - 00:31:07:14
Onjalé Scott Price
And, you know, to piggyback on that doctor Jill, that along with what Catalina said about, you know, not not being good enough or not having the necessary skills, it really goes back to how are we quantifying qualifying, expecting excellence. You know, I'm I'm going to brag a little bit about pep here. The Woods Hole Partnership education program, which is what I originally came to Woods Hole to do.

00:31:07:16 - 00:31:31:23
Onjalé Scott Price
Doctor Gille is one of the co-founders of that, and Catalina has been a huge supporter from the beginning is we don't look at the standard metrics of success or metrics of excellence. We don't look at any we look at everything, but we don't have minimum GPA scores because they don't tell the whole story. You know, we we might have we've had students who have less than a stellar GPA, but you look at their application and they work 40 hours a week.

00:31:31:25 - 00:31:50:05
Onjalé Scott Price
You're getting C's and working 40 hours a week. That's pretty awesome because a lot of people get CS and oh, that's all they do is just get CS, you know? And we've had students who only had one letter of recommendation because they only made one connection in college. But that letter of recommendation was strong on multiple occasions.

00:31:50:05 - 00:32:15:00
Onjalé Scott Price
Doctor Jill and I have called people and asked about the students that they're recommending because we we think there might be something, something about them that wasn't quite conveyed in the application or in their letters of recommendation. And, you know, we we ended up with excellent students. Our students go on and do really excellent work. And it's because we take the time to look beyond these standard metrics and look beyond the systems that are in place that normally keep us out.

00:32:15:03 - 00:32:37:29
Onjalé Scott Price
And we're able to bring those students in and support them and watch them flourish in their careers. And people often say, man, that sounds like a lot of work. It is a lot of work. We spend weeks and weeks looking at these applications and calling people and reviewing and discussing, but that's what we have to do if we're going to break down these barriers, these systems have been in place for a very long time, and they are very solid structures.

00:32:38:04 - 00:32:56:05
Onjalé Scott Price
And so if we want to break them down, we have to put in a lot of work. We can't be passive. The leaky pipeline has been used. I feel like my my whole career, I've heard it so many times, but I'm glad that we are actually thinking about the words that we use and how we discuss these issues, because people don't just fall out of the pipeline like leaky water.

00:32:56:05 - 00:33:18:18
Onjalé Scott Price
People are pushed out. People are made to feel unwelcome and unworthy and the phrase that I hear so often is, we don't want to sacrifice excellence for diversity, as if those things are mutually exclusive. But those are the kinds of things that are said to people and that that is portrayed in the way people are spoken to and the way people, just interact with each other.

00:33:18:18 - 00:33:41:27
Onjalé Scott Price
Is that, yeah. Well, you're the diversity higher. You're only here to check a box, and we we we are not getting an excellent person because we're getting you instead when it's when that's not true, but when that is perpetuated and continually discussed like that wears on a person. And and that in context of these systems, these structures that are in place to do the same thing, it's not a leaky pipeline.

00:33:41:27 - 00:34:01:29
Onjalé Scott Price
People are being pushed out. And so, I want to read that paper that you're talking about, Catalina, because I'd really like to to read how we are. We are changing the way that we talk about this so that it goes from this is passive actions to what it really is, which is these are constructed and active actions that we need to fix.

00:34:02:02 - 00:34:39:02
Catalina Martinez
And who, you know, who gets to decide, like you said right from the beginning, what is excellence? Who decides? You know, what the criteria are to become a leader? Who decides what the qualities are of a top scientist? That's all. A construct of the dominant culture that perpetuates themselves. So again, unless we're ready to dismantle what's been in place all this time, including mindsets and value systems, you know, valuing one way of learning, valuing one way of knowing, valuing these dominant culture rubrics and systems and structures.

00:34:39:05 - 00:35:03:20
Catalina Martinez
You know, unless we're willing to start to dismantle some of that and reimagine it and, and the structure and function and the individual and the individuals who get to make decisions right. Sharing power. Then I don't see how we make a dent, you know, in everything that you all have said is absolutely, you know, it's just the reality that we all face, which is why we continue to do this work.

00:35:03:20 - 00:35:22:26
Catalina Martinez
And of course, it takes more effort and resources to reach people. You know, you're not reaching. And that's often where it falls right off the table. And and what people come to us with often, I'm sure you all get this too. Is recruitment practices okay? Yes. You need to have strategic recruitment practices. It has to be done. That goes without saying.

00:35:22:29 - 00:35:41:12
Catalina Martinez
It cannot begin and end with with recruitment. If you're not creating an equitable, just system where everybody can feel they belong, you're not going to have the persistence, the advancement potential, any of that. So, you know, you can't just begin and end everything with getting a few of us through the door.

00:35:41:15 - 00:36:13:03
Ambrose Jearld
Yeah. Now, I would add to that, and I know we can move on from this, but, you know, we think of things like pipeline language. One way to me that's, that's limiting. And I ask myself the question, so if you're talking about a pipeline or a pipeline pipeline from what to where and for who are you talking about a pipeline when you're talking about people of color?

00:36:13:05 - 00:36:51:29
Ambrose Jearld
Is there a pipeline for white folks? Also, or is everybody in the pipeline? And so if it's leaking, you know, or is a leak, who's leaking out of and who's staying in, you know, these terms we use again is part of the psychological violence. USC absolutely is meted out on people of color. And it's used by those who are outright in-your-face abusive, and it's used by those who want you to think, well, no, I would never think that way, Jose.

00:36:52:01 - 00:37:28:02
Ambrose Jearld
So my thing is, is that is a, you know, why do we, you know, why is there not more diversity? It's it's is this psychological violence is part of it, you see. And then the other is, from my point of view, again, time is not on our side, or to even think it through, and tease it out is I contend that we've spent too much time focusing on the victim and victimizing the victim.

00:37:28:05 - 00:38:15:21
Ambrose Jearld
And we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, welcoming, fairness, social justice, race, racism, structural, systemic. We always find ourselves enabling whites to escape because. But their fragility to talk about these issues, you see and we always find a way to continue to focus the discussion and the, and the, approach or the, the emphasis on people of color, the victim.

00:38:15:23 - 00:38:56:02
Ambrose Jearld
We studied us to death. You see, we are hyper studied. You see, where is this? Were the studies, white people and what they have done to affect the system and to benefit from it and to be have the advantage in it. Where is the spotlight on them in terms of people relations, human relations, in terms of, decency, in terms of fairness?

00:38:56:04 - 00:39:45:05
Ambrose Jearld
We are in a system right now where we're moving from, where we through the civil rights era and through equal opportunity. EEO affirmative action came in to diversity, equity and inclusion. And now we talk about welcoming and social justice. And I think if we did the numbers around the study, we might find that we are finding fewer and fewer, relatively speaking, people of color who are in positions heading up diversity offices, diversity efforts, equity, welcoming efforts.

00:39:45:07 - 00:40:25:14
Ambrose Jearld
So I think we have to ask the question also, if we want to solve the problem, are the people who have created the problem could have solved it for us by being in control and in charge, who rocks to create a sports channel. And so we see an appreciable advancement of white women. We also see an appreciable advancement of white women as part of diversity, equity and inclusion and social justice efforts.

00:40:25:16 - 00:41:14:24
Ambrose Jearld
Well, they should be because they've been discriminated against. But what is the healthy balance and where are black women, brown women, Athena women, Asian women leading the way who have the natural affinity for their culture, for their group. So there's some complexity to this issue around how humans push others out and hold on to others. And, and so, you know, these are some, issues that, we have to, consider that are real because we are moving.

00:41:14:26 - 00:41:59:10
Ambrose Jearld
At light speed into science and technology. And and we cannot afford if we want to think about competitiveness now as opposed to a more reason for the right reason, to not rob one of his aspirations, hopes, dreams. But we, the young people that we have now, of all stripes, they may be ready for a different world than the gatekeepers, the status quo keepers still can't give up, you see.

00:41:59:12 - 00:42:34:23
Ambrose Jearld
And so. But we need them because science is not taking a back, step or a stage. So it's out there leading now. And so we need every person, every brain out there to contribute to what we're going to be able to do to mitigate, turn around or slow down or whatever this thing called climate change.

00:42:34:25 - 00:43:15:09
Ambrose Jearld
We need everyone. And I can understand why these yahoos who are in leadership positions now, in positions of authority and the power cannot find the courage, the wisdom, the understanding, the fortitude to do the right thing and move out of the way and move these barriers from host cell critical masses of people coming into the systems. Now, you see, that's that's my think,

00:43:15:12 - 00:43:18:06
Onjalé Scott Price
Down Donna jail just always dropping the knowledge on us.

00:43:18:08 - 00:43:21:28
Onjalé Scott Price
Wisdom I think this yeah.

00:43:22:00 - 00:43:47:18
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, your thoughts are welcome and always, always thought provoking and always make me want to get up and do something immediately. I appreciate your words, doctor Jay, I think this is a good segue into our second question, which is so how do we increase diversity in Stem? So let's take a moment and hear what our people on the street have to say about that.

00:43:47:21 - 00:44:18:02
Monet Murphy
So I think family is the basis of creating these opportunities for people of color. If you have good family support, if you have people that telling you you can do this and you can get to where you want to, I think that starts the basis of making areas where we don't see ourselves in kind of a moving along to have classrooms filled with black and brown students who are interested in Stem makes a big difference.

00:44:18:02 - 00:44:39:14
Monet Murphy
Having teachers that are willing to see and recognize a student who just might be interested in a sci fi book and you could tell them, hey, what was what was something that you found interesting? And if they say like a UFO, then what part of that can I get you into? Can I get you into the engineering aspect of maybe creating a vehicle that flies?

00:44:39:14 - 00:45:01:23
Monet Murphy
Or could I get you into the physical aspect of how that vehicle relies on the environment around them? And I think starting at home is a very good basis of tackling just diversity in general. I also think that creating programs is essential and has done a very good job on creating this environment, which we can all come together.

00:45:01:25 - 00:45:32:26
Monet Murphy
And while yes, we share like ideas, we're from very far few and in between backgrounds where we can bounce ideas off of each other and it's not stagnant. And I think having both community and country and global organizations that help us as African-Americans and just people of color in general, be brought to the table and be brought to the forefront of the environment, makes a whole lot of difference.

00:45:32:29 - 00:45:51:09
Gabriel Duran
It's like a matter of relinquishment of power. And I'm not saying that white people need to step down from their power. I think, you know, white people are also very key to making a better future for these next generations. But what I am saying is that they should be comfortable more with sharing their power and being ready to make some room for others at the top.

00:45:51:09 - 00:46:35:03
Gabriel Duran
And I think this includes especially in Stem, good mentorship, the redevelopment of admissions and hiring policies, the assessment of demographic data. And you know what your respective departmental or institutional goal is in that kind of, area demographics, putting more money into the development of classes, programs, material, program material like textbooks, staff, especially, and particularly graduate students who are living minimum wage that are really struggling to kind of meet anyway, especially as they continue to pursue a career that's at the moment not rewarding for people of color or for for women.

00:46:35:05 - 00:47:04:09
Gabriel Duran
And, you know, lastly, I think, a lot of emphasis and attention on engaging younger kids of underrepresented backgrounds, and maybe that includes lab tours, nature walks, zoom, zoos and aquariums, museums, community gardens, really just anything that can engage with the younger audience and really attract them to Stem. I think that's something that's very key and something that, a lot of these academic institutions, I don't want to say failed, but lack.

00:47:04:12 - 00:47:33:23
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, this has been a fantastically lively conversation, and we just heard from our people on the street answering the question, so what do we do? How do we increase diversity in Stem? And something Gabriel said actually ties in very well with something that you said, Doctor Jay, about. The people at the top, the white people at the top, people in power need to move out of the way and bring others up so they can be in those positions.

00:47:33:25 - 00:47:51:29
Onjalé Scott Price
But it's making room for other people. And how uncomfortable that is for some people to have to share that power, or to share that privilege or to share just that space. And so I don't know if we want to if we want to dive into that a bit or if we want to move in a different direction.

00:47:51:29 - 00:47:54:22
Onjalé Scott Price
But I thought that was really interesting, that, you know, that's.

00:47:54:22 - 00:48:26:25
Ambrose Jearld
What I would like to say. Just respond to that a little bit. And, and here again, the different dimensions to it. But and it is indeed, critical, that people in the top positions, in the leadership positions and the positions with power either do the job or get out of the way, so that someone can do the job that has the courage to do it.

00:48:26:28 - 00:49:06:28
Ambrose Jearld
However, I feel, too, that the probably as, severe problem is the middle also particularly how government is structured or how the institutions are structured with the faculties, those middles are given an awful lot of power, and they're the ones who hang around a long, long time and create the drag and see and so becomes opaque. And they're part of the problem.

00:49:07:01 - 00:49:41:20
Ambrose Jearld
Also, a big part of the problem and, and, and what I see also you have the persons who brought in where the is the president, the CEO, the executive, position or the dean of the provost, or is the division chief or or the head of NOAA or whatever the, sir? Yes, sir. You have those people and they should be held accountable.

00:49:41:23 - 00:50:38:21
Ambrose Jearld
And what, I'm concerned also is that you have, the, the workspace and but where do you, establish accountability and follow through on that accountability. And so if you have, diversity plans, equity, inclusion, welcoming plans, who is there to make sure that those plans are carried out? Now, I understand that part of the problem too is sometimes you're laying a new way of seeing, doing and shine on something that's old and rusty.

00:50:38:24 - 00:51:09:09
Ambrose Jearld
And so these systems, these structures that we have in place are part of the problem also in the sense that you can't just keep trying to put a Band-Aid on it over here, bandage it up over here. Put some glue on it here. You know, put some putty here in it and and think, well, okay, now, you have a system that you can carry out these goals and objectives.

00:51:09:12 - 00:51:31:17
Ambrose Jearld
No, you've got to get rid of the system because the system, the structure is the problem. You see, it's a problem. And it is also a way of people hiding behind it and feeling safe if they play by the rules in those systems. You see.

00:51:31:19 - 00:51:59:25
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. When when I think about it, I also think about it being, a holistic approach. So if we think about like an academic institution, the leadership concept this they can set the policy, they can set the tone, you know, that people below them are supposed to follow. But when you think about the day to day and the actual activities and the students that work in labs or the administrators that are hired that that happen, like you said, it happens at the middle.

00:51:59:25 - 00:52:18:11
Onjalé Scott Price
That's that's the professors and the middle management that actually manages that day to day. They're the ones who are going to be recruiting for students for their programs. They're the ones going to be reviewing applications for their program. So like you said, it's just as important for those people to to change the systems and the structures as it is for the leadership.

00:52:18:11 - 00:52:22:10
Onjalé Scott Price
It's got to be top down but can't be lost in the middle. The middle.

00:52:22:10 - 00:52:24:28
Ambrose Jearld
They have the power to her and they're.

00:52:25:00 - 00:52:25:16
Onjalé Scott Price
Right in.

00:52:25:16 - 00:52:32:10
Ambrose Jearld
The middle saying, who comes in and who does and who gets a promotion and who does. Yeah, yeah.

00:52:32:12 - 00:52:34:19
Onjalé Scott Price
What do you think, Catalina?

00:52:34:22 - 00:53:21:05
Catalina Martinez
So I mean, absolutely. Right. So what I'm hearing in the more, kind of big picture sense is the need for turnover. Obviously, in the power structure, in the areas where people have influence and control. And that's scary, right? Sharing power is terrifying. If you're if you've been benefiting from that particular deeply entrenched power structure for so long and also the need to shift, you know, our value systems, because as we were talking about during kind of the break, you can easily check the boxes with, you know, really, with endeavors that have no real intention of making a difference.

00:53:21:08 - 00:53:44:20
Catalina Martinez
But unless you're going to shift the value structure and bring these diversity, equity, inclusion, access, justice, you know, efforts into, an equitable space with everything else we do in these Stem, you know, institutions, you're never going to shift the mindsets of the gatekeepers, because the gatekeepers are going to take time to turn over. Right. So I can come in.

00:53:44:21 - 00:54:10:18
Catalina Martinez
People like us can come in and flag the barriers in their policies, their procedures, you know, and their practices all day long, but they can still implement them in a biased manner if they're not. Also shifting the gatekeepers over the mindsets of those who are making the decisions, the power structure, like you're saying, you know, but we have to simultaneously consider, you know, what?

00:54:10:18 - 00:54:49:08
Catalina Martinez
Are we ready to totally disrupt? Right? Where's the the true structural and systemic change going to come? And which spheres of influence and power are going to have to be reimagined for this? And, you know, that's why I, I always feel that, you know, we are sort of the wedges in the door. But our job, which is what perhaps does so beautifully, is to help, you know, that next generation climb over our backs because we have to get them to positions of influence, leadership and power, to simultaneously tackle the bad actors as we're talking about.

00:54:49:10 - 00:55:29:21
Catalina Martinez
But to shift the culture, they also have to reimagine in a way forward. And, you know, and as you started this conversation, Ambrose, you know, diversity is essential for good science, right? And so we know that the face of America is changing and that us, you know, marginalized and minoritized groups are the reason for that, right? We know that our communities are changing the face of this country, but the face of, you know, stem in this country, as Ambrose has been around long enough to see himself, is not changing.

00:55:29:28 - 00:55:41:12
Catalina Martinez
If anything, the the areas where we've maybe had made a little bit of progress at some point through a particular initiatives is is now falling short even further.

00:55:41:15 - 00:55:55:23
Ambrose Jearld
And I think that, you know, to ask for, you know, you know, how are we going to change things? It's a big.

00:55:55:25 - 00:56:53:21
Ambrose Jearld
Thought, but it's part of the crisis that we are in right now. And, and that is, we have all of these years where we have denied a proper a good, a solid education to boys and girls of color. And we are not doing a come up. I don't think, with the numbers. And not just for numbers sake, but we're not going to change things as rapidly as we could if we do not find a way to, in a massive way, turn our education system around.

00:56:53:23 - 00:57:30:12
Ambrose Jearld
Starting at pre-K and all the way through secondary school, in the sense that we have both with formal education and informal education, it takes place in one's life, by the time they get to, the college level. And I think there's thinking out there right now, our colleges and universities going to have the same place 20 years, 30 or 40 years from now that they have now.

00:57:30:15 - 00:57:56:12
Ambrose Jearld
A will there be other ways of credentialing, qualifying? One skill set toolbox, so to say, to be able to contribute to science and technology. And so we need a wholesale, a radical, a transformative.

00:57:56:14 - 00:58:36:04
Ambrose Jearld
Approach and act or impact to get our boys and girls right now with access and the proper education and skills building that they need to see. Otherwise you and I going to build still be the musician of the magicians that we've been to know where their pockets and populations out there to go untapped, that others haven't known the go to or don't won't go to or can't go to or whatever.

00:58:36:07 - 00:59:15:26
Ambrose Jearld
And we can still look good. You see, and we know they're out there, but they're just thousands and thousands, millions more that are there also, but need the proper intervention. And so are how are we going to change this? We need, drastic waterfront change in terms of the numbers of people that are coming to the education system, with the skill sets, to build on their interests, for a better world, it.

00:59:15:26 - 01:00:01:05
Ambrose Jearld
See, and so I think that's that's certainly one of the things that we have to do. We have to certainly get to the point where leadership, in the, government or in academia or in private industry, NGOs or whatever are going to have to understand the benefit of those higher education institutions that we already have in place and that are credentialed, like our historically black colleges and universities, our tribal colleges, our minority serve other minority serving institution, Hispanic serving institution, Asian serving institutions.

01:00:01:07 - 01:00:42:00
Ambrose Jearld
I think we heard from Doctor Taylor. Examples of why we have to give up thinking that only expertise, excellence, rise lies in the Ivy League or the flagship university, or the well heeled small private institutions. And so they're places that we still need to go and open the doors to and and embrace as bonafide collaborators, partners, collaborators. We get to change the rules together.

01:00:42:03 - 01:01:12:22
Ambrose Jearld
We get to go after the resources together as we define them together. There's no power. Competition here. I'm big. I'm all of this. So therefore this relationship as a power base, we're meeting as equals, you see. So I think those are some of the kinds of things that we need to do. In a big way.

01:01:12:24 - 01:01:53:16
Ambrose Jearld
A big, big way. If we really want to be ready for where science and technology is going and have everyone, contributing that could offer so much to it. Because another thing is you look at how much money is spent to hold these groups down. It's trillions of dollars, trillions to subjugate people, to oppress people.

01:01:53:18 - 01:02:23:14
Rev. Will Mebane
Hambros, I want to pick up on what you were saying about, the need for radical change, a metamorphosis in the educational system. I was watching. First of all, I was thinking about my own, education as a as a young boy growing up in the South. And you were in my. You and I share the North Carolina's home state, and, it was in the time when NASA was, coming online and the space program was really big.

01:02:23:14 - 01:02:47:13
Rev. Will Mebane
And John Glenn and, you know, all that. And I remember saying to my, my teachers, and when I was in elementary school, I want to become an aeronautical engineer. Now, I do not know what an aeronautical engineer was, but I had learned from hearing news reports of something that that was someone that worked on the space program. Right?

01:02:47:15 - 01:03:12:00
Rev. Will Mebane
Not one teacher ever embraced that with me, and that encouraged me. And to say, yeah, you can be an yeah, you can be an arrow, an aeronautical engineer. Right. And so I think about we think about students today. How many of them are also not being encouraged, not being celebrated. And I was a, a report, on NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt.

01:03:12:03 - 01:03:47:05
Rev. Will Mebane
August, August 2nd, additions that I saw where there was a gentleman I forgot. What what state it was and but, 15 years ago, he decided to provide to the schoolchildren that were riding the bus two hours each way to and from school. So this was at a rural community, these young children in kindergarten, first grade and above where riding a bus two hours each way to and from school, right.

01:03:47:07 - 01:03:59:08
Rev. Will Mebane
And for 15 years, NBC has been tracking, what he did with them. And what he did was he gave all of the students on those busses, computers.

01:03:59:11 - 01:04:00:01
Rev. Will Mebane
Okay.

01:04:00:03 - 01:04:04:09
Rev. Will Mebane
And started to introduce them to science.

01:04:04:12 - 01:04:05:00
Gabriel Duran

01:04:05:02 - 01:04:36:22
Rev. Will Mebane
And so 15 years later, you now see some of these students working in labs and science labs, these students, going to colleges and universities and majoring in, you know, biology and chemistry and all the different sciences. And I was like, yeah, why not? That's, you know, picking up on your idea. Radical idea, equip these children on the bus with the tools that they need to learn.

01:04:36:24 - 01:05:03:23
Rev. Will Mebane
And, you know, they can matriculate and they can be successful contributing members. And then I'll share one last, the personal experience when I was, admitted to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, I was admitted as a probationary student right. And, I remember going to the admissions office and the assistant admissions director saying to my father at me, Mr. Mebane speaking to my father.

01:05:03:23 - 01:05:31:11
Rev. Will Mebane
Mr. Mebane, don't be surprised when your son flunks out of school. Don't be surprised when he flunk. So not if he finds out, but when he flunked out. Right. Well, on the way home, my dad didn't say a word to me in the car, but he gave me that look. And that look was. You better not look at him.

01:05:31:14 - 01:05:32:03
Ambrose Jearld
Yeah.

01:05:32:05 - 01:05:56:14
Rev. Will Mebane
And to his credit, I was. This was my first semester. Was these list my second semester? I goofed up my sophomore year a little bit. I had to get back up there on this list. But the point is that the expectation was that, oh, you can't do it. You can't you can't handle it. You know, so we're not going to invest in you, because you can't do the work.

01:05:56:16 - 01:06:05:15
Rev. Will Mebane
And that kind of, Discouragement, you know, continues. It continues today. You know.

01:06:05:18 - 01:06:39:26
Ambrose Jearld
Well, yeah. And, you know, well, to me, your story, probably 99, 97% of people of color, men and women, boys and girls can tell the same or have a similar, story to tell. Yep. About someone standing in the way or not believing them or not, supporting them to have confidence in themselves and know. Yeah, I have my stories.

01:06:39:26 - 01:07:17:15
Ambrose Jearld
You see, we all do. And but it it we still have the status quo. That is they can hear those stories, but they're not willing to get off the dime and change their way of living. Something totally off of the subject here. And look at, Eugene Robinson's piece on Bill Russell and the show. And I said, you know how many times.

01:07:17:17 - 01:07:40:21
Ambrose Jearld
Will we have to read a piece like that or an obituary of accomplished individuals like Bill Russell? You, all of us. And there has to be thrown in there and it should be put in there.

01:07:40:23 - 01:07:50:10
Ambrose Jearld
Yet? This is what they had to survive.

01:07:50:13 - 01:08:42:01
Ambrose Jearld
One not being able to all that he was doing and could do and brought to galvanizing Boston or New England around the Celtics. He still had to confront raw racism, raw in your face, violence from people in his family had to go, you know, left where there was overnight over weekend, week or whatever to come home to a house with racial epithets and graffiti written all over the walls, feces in the beard, and you again, you talk to the average person of color, the average black person.

01:08:42:04 - 01:09:14:16
Ambrose Jearld
They have experienced this, you see, or similar. And that is the violence that we have lived with our forefathers and parents lived with and we continue to live with in this country. And all of that creates that psychological violence that I'm talking about for our boys and girls. Who are trying to contemplate how to, get alone in this world with everyone.

01:09:14:18 - 01:09:53:18
Ambrose Jearld
And how do I escape no matter what I want to do or how well I'm doing or how I will behave? I am those individuals who want to focus on my blackness, or my brownness, or my whatever, but often without good intentions. You see. And that is part of what we're dealing with. So when we were talking about how are we going to increase our participation, diversify the science, technology, engineering and mathematics fields?

01:09:53:21 - 01:10:37:06
Ambrose Jearld
All of these life living, day to day experiences. Are what we have to contend with. And somebody has got to help move those out of the way. You see. And because our boys and girls are having to or get to then compete with individuals who do not have these obstacles in their way, doesn't mean they don't have some trials and tribulations that we all, we humans have, but they don't have that extra added, intentional violence.

01:10:37:08 - 01:11:31:24
Ambrose Jearld
Where the physical or psychologically imposed on them. And that's what our boys and girls are dealing with. They're dealing with it from the time they get out of their beds, however, they traverse from the school, from the home to the school, and once they get to the school and it isn't just from their playmates that can be naughty as kids can be this from their teachers and from their administrators also, and from the school boards and from the board of trustees, the overseers who maintain these policies and procedures and operations and administrations of the status quo.

01:11:31:26 - 01:11:53:06
Onjalé Scott Price
I hate that we need to wrap this up soon, because I feel like we could continue this conversation. Doctor Jill, everything you said resonates forever. Will. Your story unfortunately resonates. I've got a very similar one. But before we wrap up, I want to ask Catalina if you have any any final thoughts that you'd like to share with us before we wrap up today?

01:11:53:08 - 01:12:20:17
Catalina Martinez
Who you know, it shouldn't be an act of resistance to get to these spaces or to persist in these spaces, but it is, and so, you know, because I like to speak to, you know, our scholars, our students of color who tend to watch our programs, speaking directly to them. You know, I know this all sounds intractable, right?

01:12:20:19 - 01:12:48:22
Catalina Martinez
And impossible. Never limit your vision of who you can become or where you belong based on what you see around you today. Right? I believe critical mass makes a difference. And, you know, I mean it when I say that in our, our jobs at this point are to be the wedge in the door, you know, we continue to do the work to help amplify your voices and bring you forward.

01:12:48:24 - 01:13:20:25
Catalina Martinez
You have to climb over our backs and get to your positions of leadership, influence and power to help shift this culture. But you need to build community to do that. And this is what we have together. You know, when I look at you all, I'm just so full of gratitude for that because my community is my superpower. You know, that superpower of resilience, persistence, learning to navigate these obstacles and turn them into detours instead of outright barriers that comes from your community of support.

01:13:20:27 - 01:13:29:15
Catalina Martinez
The people you collect along the way, those who champion you along the way. And to me, that's the superpower of resilience is your people.

01:13:29:18 - 01:13:54:18
Onjalé Scott Price
And say Amen to that. Amen to the well, I really want to thank you, Catalina, and thank you, doctor J, for joining us today for this timely and important conversation. As always, Rev, it's been a pleasure to see you and to speak with you and to hear what you have to say. And thanks to Deb and Alana FCV for continuing to co-produce, co manage and just work on this wonderful show with us.

01:13:54:18 - 01:14:03:11
Onjalé Scott Price
We are very grateful to Abc-Tv for hosting this. So until next time everyone. Thank you and hope to see you on the next conversation.

01:14:03:14 - 01:14:04:23
Catalina Martinez
Thank you so much.

01:14:04:25 - 01:14:15:08
Ambrose Jearld
Here's to the future.

01:14:15:11 - 01:14:22:15
Rev. Will Mebane

01:14:22:17 - 01:14:33:18
Rev. Will Mebane

01:14:33:20 - 01:14:33:29
Rev. Will Mebane