00;00;08;09 - 00;00;30;22
Onjale Scott Price
Good afternoon everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The Conversation. Rev, Will and I are excited to have you all today. Today we're going to be talking specifically about white privilege. So what is white privilege? And why is it so hard for white people to talk about racism? So first, let's jump to our guests on the street to see what a few people have to say.

00;00;31;00 - 00;00;58;28
Gabriel Duran
White privilege to me, means going through life, not being afraid or hindered, on the basis of your skin. So for myself, it would be, being afraid to speak Spanish in white communities or in restaurants, gas stations, being racially profiled for walking down the street, walking through a store. White communities, especially, and having to work like three times harder than my white colleagues for the same exact work.

00;00;59;01 - 00;01;02;19
Gabriel Duran
Just to get the same recognition and praise that my white colleagues would get.

00;01;03;02 - 00;01;40;09
Deborah Jackson
Even in the academic community as to whose voice is being heard. I think Peggy McIntosh's article was groundbreaking, and I think, most people struggle to know what to do with that term, myself included. When you think about white privilege, because it's unacknowledged advantages. So they're outside of our awareness. So unless we really bring our intentional awareness to questioning that we just go about our lives and we don't notice things until someone else is at a disadvantage.

00;01;40;12 - 00;01;46;08
Deborah Jackson
And generally only if that person is personally relevant or known to us. Do we care about it.

00;01;46;11 - 00;02;02;01
George Liles
Because privilege, white privilege is like, in a sense, it's like the wind. I compared to riding a bike along surf drive. If you're riding heading for Woods Hole, Long Surf drive, and the winds at your back, you don't know there's a wind there. You're just cruising along. You think life's pretty good and you're just flying down surf drive.

00;02;02;06 - 00;02;17;25
George Liles
And then somebody comes along headed the other direction and they can hardly move. They're working so hard to go into the wind, but you can't feel it. If you turn around and go into the wind, then you can feel it. And white privilege is like that in a lot of ways. When you have it, it's invisible. I grew up with it and I didn't know I had it.

00;02;17;25 - 00;02;33;19
George Liles
I thought everybody was, you know, being treated the way I was being treated. So it's again, if you if you have it, it's almost invisible. It does not mean that your life is easy. And the first time me as a white person, I think this is common for white folks. First time we hear about this, we go, oh, wait a minute.

00;02;33;21 - 00;02;55;09
George Liles
You know, life hasn't been a bed of roses for me. I've had all kinds of things I've had to overcome and my achievements and anything I do to have create a really nice life for myself that wasn't all handed to me. I worked hard for it. That can be true. At the same time, it's true that I had privilege because yeah, every every white person I know has had difficulties they've have to overcome if they want to have a good life and live a good life.

00;02;55;11 - 00;03;09;04
George Liles
But it's also true that one of the difficulties gets added to all there others is not. The difficulties is how people treat you based on your skin. So, white privilege doesn't mean your life is easy. It just means that one of your problems is not the color of your skin.

00;03;09;19 - 00;03;31;29
Onjale Scott Price
Welcome back. So we've just heard a few interesting takes on white privilege. So I'd, I'd like to open it up to our panelists. Megan, you've lived in East Falmouth since about 2004, and I know that you're a town member for precinct eight, your co-chair of the Affirmative Action and Diversity Committee in Falmouth. And your treasure for the League of Women Voters.

00;03;32;01 - 00;03;51;27
Onjale Scott Price
And you're also one of the founding members of Racial Justice Falmouth. So it seems like and all the things that you do that you have these kinds of conversations. So I'm interested in what you feel like white privilege is. And have you had those kinds of conversations within your groups? Thank you, Auntie, and thank you for having me on the conversation.

00;03;51;29 - 00;04;19;08
Meghan Hanawalt
Yes. We've had a lot of conversations about race. In the past couple of years. The racial justice, in particular the Racial Justice Falmouth group is a it's a monthly meeting where we'll read a book or listen to a podcast or both or and then we come together and discuss the issues that are going, go into depth on the issues that are part of that book or podcast or movie.

00;04;19;08 - 00;04;48;16
Meghan Hanawalt
And, we've consumed a lot of media, over the past year and a half that we've been meeting our focus this year since George Floyd was killed in Minnesota is to take a small look at some of the, institutions that have systemic racism built into them, like housing, prisons. Police. Our next month, next month, we're going to be talking about, health care.

00;04;48;19 - 00;05;11;11
Meghan Hanawalt
So it's really, been, you know, for a white person, you know, eye opening is something I probably should have known for a long time ago. And I'm embarrassed that I am just learning it now. But, you know, the best time to start was earlier. But now I can only go forward. So we're and we're we're happy to do it with people in town.

00;05;11;11 - 00;05;22;13
Onjale Scott Price
So it's great. You know, it's fantastic. Thanks. Reverend. Well, what do you think? About what? Write privileges. Since you obviously have a different perspective.

00;05;22;16 - 00;05;53;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, a little bit. You know, the thing that and we heard in, one of the video clips, you know, it's something that white folks really don't have to think about, you know, because they just live it. You know, it's just, you know, life and they go through life, not having to worry about being attacked for the color of their skin or because of their race.

00;05;53;00 - 00;06;31;12
Rev. Will Mebane
And, so as a black male, that is always, it's always present with me. I always know that when I'm in the presence of a white person that, they outright me in terms of privilege. And I know there's certain privileges I'm going to be afforded them that, will not automatically be afforded me. They might, as we, engage with one another and they get to realize that, oh, he's he's an intelligent guy, and he's seems like a nice guy.

00;06;31;12 - 00;06;55;24
Rev. Will Mebane
And, maybe this is someone with whom I could have a relationship. And so once that happens, then a white person is more willing to, allow me to have, the same privileges of the. See that I have the same right to have the same privileges that a that a white person has. And I know one of them.

00;06;55;26 - 00;07;20;05
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, one of the things I'm curious to hear from, from our panelists is they, a response that I often hear from, from white folks, and, you know, I don't I don't have I don't have privilege. You know, I, I had to work hard to get everything that I have, and nothing was given to me.

00;07;20;08 - 00;07;34;22
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, what do you mean? I have a privilege that is, that you don't have as a as a black person. And so, I look forward to hearing what our panelists, and you and you have to say about, about that.

00;07;34;24 - 00;07;54;15
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. Thanks. So that is going to be interesting to hear. I do want to hear from our panelists first, before I, I jump in to what I think. So, Sandy, I'd like to move on to you with your thoughts. I understand that you have a PhD in anthropology, and part of what you studied was race and ethnicity among seems like many other things, like women and gender studies.

00;07;54;17 - 00;08;01;29
Onjale Scott Price
And you're retired professor of anthropology at Bridgewater State, and you've been in Falmouth for over 30 years, correct?

00;08;02;01 - 00;08;02;26
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Yes.

00;08;02;28 - 00;08;13;13
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. So I'm interested in your take on white privilege and in, in your studies, having studied people, how you feel about the subjects.

00;08;13;16 - 00;08;48;07
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Well, when I try to explore the subject with students and with people in the community, I try to show them how white privilege is. It permeates every aspect of our lives. It affects people of color economically, and that people, of color are, earn lower wages than white people. It's it affects us politically and that we have fewer much less representation of people of color at all levels of government in education.

00;08;48;10 - 00;09;18;08
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Educational attainment is lower for people of color because either because of a history of, of of exclusion and, segregation, and also because of the cost of education. So it's unaffordable to low income people in policing. People of color are more often pulled over for stops by police. They they get higher sentences. They're incarcerated more often.

00;09;18;08 - 00;09;52;13
Sandra Faiman-Silva
They're arrested more often. They don't have the legal protections that white people have in our neighborhoods. We have segregation and throughout society. So it's a systemic problem. And it it's it's roots are in a history of, of slavery. And people, who were enslaved, were enslaved on the basis of race. And that legacy has endured. Into today in all of its complexity and its permutations.

00;09;52;13 - 00;10;26;28
Sandra Faiman-Silva
So it's it and it's rooted in, white ignorance and white people denying that it exists. So we faced this problem of having to educate people about a system of society that privileges, and oppresses others. And it's what I call a racial class hierarchy. Whites. It's like a triangle. Whites are at the top. They garner the privileges, and they're ranked by color and class.

00;10;27;01 - 00;10;40;19
Sandra Faiman-Silva
As we move down the structure, we see it in our society. We see it throughout Latin America. We see it globally, and we're working. But we need to do is dismantle it.

00;10;40;21 - 00;11;04;29
Onjale Scott Price
Absolutely. And part of what you said about the system specifically, I just finished reading The New Jim Crow, and it seemed like a lot of things that I felt like I kind of knew there was evidence of it, and there were court cases and Supreme Court cases that were where like, they just showed a clear manifestation of of white supremacy in these systems within our country.

00;11;04;29 - 00;11;30;04
Onjale Scott Price
And that was, it took me a while to read it because it was it was difficult to get through. But I think that's just one one really good example of the ones that that you just mentioned. And so speaking of things globally and how white privilege is global. Katarina, I'd like to ask your thoughts. And I know you're from Spain, and you left Spain and went to Holland and then came to the United States and you've been here for about 20 years.

00;11;30;11 - 00;11;38;22
Onjale Scott Price
So in your experiences, is white privilege here in the US very different than it is maybe overseas or what similarities have you seen?

00;11;38;24 - 00;12;10;17
Carmina Mock
Well, in Spain when I grew up, we didn't have, a lot of, foreigners. So it was just maybe a few Moroccans, which indeed were treated very, very poorly. But I wasn't aware. I was so, so unaware of what was going on. I didn't even think about my white privilege until I came to the United States. And the, as an immigrant.

00;12;10;19 - 00;12;46;23
Carmina Mock
And I was confronted with a lot of hostility at the customs officers. I was carrying my four children with me. One of them, Lucia. Very little sitting on my hip, and the blond guy with blue eyes looked at me very strongly with hostility. And, when I started speaking with my accent, it was even more obvious that I was, part of the, team in this country.

00;12;46;23 - 00;13;18;24
Carmina Mock
So I was, I felt, what I would call the otherness, you know, that they put me in in a corner that was in a very, comfortable, corner for me. I, I realized that even though I suffer just a tiny bit, I got a little taste of that hostility. It'll never compare.

00;13;19;01 - 00;13;45;02
Carmina Mock
Never, ever with, what a black person feels in this country from the moment they wake up until they go to bed. And. And then most of it, fathers and mothers who never know what is going to happen to their children the moment, they leave their house if they're going to come back alive or not. So that that's an agony.

00;13;45;04 - 00;14;08;18
Carmina Mock
The only thing I have to add that puts me closer to the black community, most of it to the black mothers. Is that my two first born in Spain were taking away from me like they used to do here with the slaves, and they took the babies away from their mothers to be sold. And that pain I had to endure.

00;14;08;20 - 00;14;22;21
Carmina Mock
And maybe because of that, I always felt, closer to to the suffering of, mothers in, in the black American community.

00;14;22;24 - 00;14;26;12
Onjale Scott Price
I'm very sorry to hear that. Kind of, you know, but thank you for sharing that with us.

00;14;26;18 - 00;14;27;24
Carmina Mock
Thank you.

00;14;27;27 - 00;14;29;22
Onjale Scott Price
Rabbi, you look like you want to say something.

00;14;29;24 - 00;14;52;07
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Oh, I got so much going through my head right now. So many things I wanted to say. And that, I know a little bit of Carmen, a story because she's had a chance to, share that with me privately. Thanks to a lovely invitation to her home with her husband, Bill. And, or Pilar and, had a chance to to hear some of her story.

00;14;52;09 - 00;15;11;03
Rev. Will Mebane
Which maybe we should talk a little bit more about. Maybe in another time. What? It was like living in a fascist, Government under Franco and and all. But, Sandy, one thing that you were taught because you were an educator, maybe I'm jumping the gun a little bit. Oh, I hate using that phrase.

00;15;11;03 - 00;15;45;03
Rev. Will Mebane
What am I saying? Jumping the gun. But what? We jump ahead. As an educator. So how do you educate someone who is so profoundly, and so obstinate about, not being a beneficiary of white privilege? Someone who says I don't have white privilege? What are you talking about? I don't. Can you give any words of wisdom?

00;15;45;06 - 00;16;12;18
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Well, you try to use plenty of examples. We talk about when we talk about white privilege, we also are dealing with stereotypes. And we're dealing with, prejudice. So I often give an example for, for example, people say, well, you know, black people are successful. We have a lot of basketball players. We have a lot of Hollywood stars, football players.

00;16;12;18 - 00;16;42;16
Sandra Faiman-Silva
I said, so I say, well, is that innate? You know, is that what black people can do? And, you know, people are good at this or they're good at that. And I'll say, well, you know, what about Canadians? They're good at hockey. Does that mean that they carry a genetic trait for being a hockey player? You know, and I try to deconstruct and break down the stereotypes, about education.

00;16;42;16 - 00;17;13;28
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Well, you know, black people don't want to go to college or they're not very good at it. So we work on that. And then we we just really have to confront that. Racism is learned. It's learned at the breakfast table. It's learned at your parents need, it's transgenerational. People pass it on to their children. And we confront the issue, for example, of affirmative action.

00;17;14;00 - 00;17;45;18
Sandra Faiman-Silva
You know, why do we have affirmative action? Why is it necessary? And, how do you t educate people about, seeing the world in a different way, using examples around, structural inequality and what is innate and what is learned if you, you know, if a child is born to a drug addicted, addicted parent, do they have a choice about that?

00;17;45;20 - 00;18;18;23
Sandra Faiman-Silva
But, you know, they are the recipient of a condition over which they had absolutely no control. Race is is innate. It's not learned. And we talk about what what innate attributes do we have that are universal, that affect us and we have very few, you know, we have very few innate attributes as Homo sapiens. Virtually everything we do in every part of our culture is learned.

00;18;18;26 - 00;18;56;27
Sandra Faiman-Silva
All of our culture has learned, and racism is learned. And so we just work through those kinds of issues. And once you see how society is structured around inequality, whether it's gender based, race based, economic based, I mean, people do learn and once they learn it, you can't you can't unlearn it. Once you see the big picture, of any of structural inequality.

00;18;56;29 - 00;19;01;01
Sandra Faiman-Silva
But it's difficult. People are into denial. I agree.

00;19;01;04 - 00;19;32;01
Rev. Will Mebane
I love so much what you said about, racism and all the isms of, being, being learned, is not innate, but as a, as a, as a person of faith, as a spiritual leader. And in this community, the one thing that I believe is innate is love. Love that every human being is born with the capacity and to love and the need for love.

00;19;32;03 - 00;19;52;05
Rev. Will Mebane
But something happens as we begin to, matriculate, through life that causes us to, not want to offer that innate love to others who are different from us. And you're absolutely right. It's, it's learned.

00;19;52;08 - 00;20;22;29
Sandra Faiman-Silva
So and, and the whole issue of, of what is learned and, that love is innate. Well, there is a debate in the social, scientific community about whether humans are innately cooperative or innately competitive. This is really the root of the division of society, you know, are we innately competitive? Are we innately selfish and grand izing that we want to get things for ourselves?

00;20;23;02 - 00;20;56;11
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Are we innately, a warring people or a peace loving people? And we, you know, humans need community. You infants cannot survive without families and without extended families and care for the longest period of you know, infertile dependents of any species. We are innately a social species. And we have to cooperate with each other. And the question is, why do people build boundaries?

00;20;56;11 - 00;21;20;19
Sandra Faiman-Silva
You know, why do they build ethnic and racial and religious boundaries where they have an aversion to people unlike themselves? They're loyal to their friends and family, but they're disloyal to outsiders. And I did a research project on Provincetown and about overcoming difference and building community across the divide of difference and what I found is that found that Provincetown does not have ghettos.

00;21;20;19 - 00;21;48;15
Sandra Faiman-Silva
You know, we don't we don't have ghettoized neighborhoods in Provincetown. Everyone lives together. People congregate at church. They do social activities, the senior center, they, do fundraisers across the gender divide of GLB, GQ and straight people. And they get along. And it was really instructive to think about how do we overcome difference and build community across that.

00;21;48;15 - 00;22;05;26
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Those divides. You can't have it where all the white people live in the suburbs and all the minorities live in the cities. We have to break down those neighborhoods and integrate and become one.

00;22;05;28 - 00;22;08;01
Onjale Scott Price
I mean, I think I saw your hand.

00;22;08;04 - 00;22;48;19
Carmina Mock
Yes. I, I am hearing, words like love and community, which are the pillars of, success for society. However, I have to say that for me, what I experience in the years that I have been exposed to racism in America is that whiteness is an analogy for power, and white supremacy is an analogy for power and hatred, and is based on colonial rules, education, finances.

00;22;48;21 - 00;23;38;20
Carmina Mock
Medical care, whatever you want to, call it. It's all based on colonialism. We have to accept it. And and up till we don't take the brave step to kill whiteness, we are not going to be close to, the solution and pay attention. I am not talking about killing white people. One people here, to make sure that the white supremacy stays for as long as possible, and we have it ingrained in the language we speak in the books we are giving at the school.

00;23;38;25 - 00;24;12;25
Carmina Mock
There is not enough, black literature or Native Americans or queer literature like this book that my daughter Lucy recommended me to read, this bridge called My Back, written by radical women of color, Harry Moraga, Gloria, and, so, Daisy Hernandez, Maria Hinojosa, all these women who are just fighters to change the systems. And we have to just acknowledge it.

00;24;12;27 - 00;24;36;27
Carmina Mock
If we are unable to finish colonialism, then we can talk for many, many years and we'll be still in the same place. That's my feeling. People. People, of color won't be able to get mortgages or get education or a good health system. We are seeing it now in the pandemic. It's going to be a waste of time.

00;24;37;03 - 00;25;02;05
Carmina Mock
So either we just grab the bull by the horns, like you say in my country, or we just waste our time. That's my take. I'm very I'm very radical. I, I, I was joking to my daughter Lucy, this morning and I said, you know, I have been invited to this panel and I would like to start saying, to hell with the white supremacists.

00;25;02;12 - 00;25;07;15
Carmina Mock
And she said, mama, that's your white privilege.

00;25;07;17 - 00;25;08;20
Onjale Scott Price
Oh.

00;25;08;22 - 00;25;22;03
Carmina Mock
That's your white privilege. A black person cannot say that. So she got me right there. So I'm learning constantly how to change my colonial, given language.

00;25;22;05 - 00;25;45;26
Onjale Scott Price
But I think it's important for white people to say those things because it's going to take the people in power to dismantle the systems that keep them in power. So, as you said, if I were to say that, you know, it could it could get nasty, you know, but, if you were to say that or Megan or even Sandy was to say that, you know, white people might might listen or they definitely wouldn't.

00;25;45;29 - 00;26;04;19
Onjale Scott Price
We can look at you guys as harshly. I know there's definitely been studies that show when a black person, whether or not it was true that they brought up something in their workplace or in their community that was racist or biased there, whether it's true or not, they are now seen as like an outcast, as a problem person, as a troublemaker.

00;26;04;19 - 00;26;18;13
Onjale Scott Price
And nobody wants to deal with them. But if the same thing is brought up by a white person to these white people, then it's like, oh, well, maybe, maybe I should listen to that. You know, it's like my mom says all the time to me, well, I told you that when you were growing up. And I'm like, yeah, but now I hear it from my friends.

00;26;18;13 - 00;26;49;00
Onjale Scott Price
And so now it makes, you know, it makes more sense. Yeah. So that's a kind of an apples and oranges. But I, I think along those same lines, what you were saying about acknowledging our history and acknowledging the words that we use, I think is incredibly powerful. So, like I said, I just finished reading The New Jim Crow, which was a fantastic book that, I know this isn't a book club, but I'm definitely plugging that book and it really, really gets into how we ended up with all these black men specifically incarcerated in our country.

00;26;49;00 - 00;27;17;24
Onjale Scott Price
And if we don't acknowledge all of the systems and the policies and the government practices that were put in place to lead to this point, we're never going to be able to dismantle that system. And so I and I know it's a difficult topic to discuss, and it's especially difficult for white people to discuss racism. So I think real quick, we'll go back to the street and see what our guests on the street have to say about why they think it's so hard for white people to talk about racism, and then we'll come back.

00;27;17;24 - 00;27;41;16
George Liles
With the first reason, I think, why it's hard for white folks to talk about race is because we're afraid will say something stupid, something wrong, something hurtful. And you know what? We will. We do. We do all the time. Because the reality is, growing up white in America, you really don't. You don't have to understand very much about race and and frankly, when I grew up, we weren't taught I mean, I was taught about slavery, but I didn't know about Tulsa.

00;27;41;18 - 00;28;07;08
George Liles
I didn't know about Juneteenth. I didn't know about the lynchings. I just, you know, I didn't know all of those things. So the experiences of people of color have, I struggle to, be educated about that and to understand that in my lack of understanding about it, I say stupid and hurtful things. I think that the key thing for white folks in talking about race is to acknowledge that we're not the experts on race, and we are going to make mistakes when we engage in conversations at it.

00;28;07;11 - 00;28;25;07
George Liles
And the right response, then is not to be defensive. It's not to say you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that. It's not to say, oh, I'm. I'm sorry, but I really didn't mean that. No, it's just to say, I'm sorry if I step on your toe and it hurts you, and I say I'm sorry. I didn't mean to step on your toe.

00;28;25;07 - 00;28;38;07
George Liles
It still hurts you. And the proper response when we make a mistake is to listen to it, to learn from it, and to say, I am sorry. So that's one reason why I think that it's hard for white folks to talk about racism is afraid we'll make a mistake.

00;28;38;10 - 00;29;06;02
Deborah Jackson
So I think people when they're, are afraid of saying the wrong thing and they're afraid of this. So now it has a term, the cancellation culture, right? That if you talk about race and, you make a mistake or even if you do actually do something or say something that is racist, that you'll be attacked and treated like you're not a good person.

00;29;06;04 - 00;29;37;25
Deborah Jackson
I think most people want to believe and try to be good people. So it's very hard then, to bring together the idea that good people can unintentionally and intentionally do things that are racist, whether it's, you know, microaggressions. And that might be unintentional, it might be intentional, and you may not own on to the fact that you're doing it because of someone's race or because you think you have a right to do it.

00;29;37;27 - 00;30;06;29
Deborah Jackson
So I think it's hard for people who want to feel like they're a good person and that they have good intentions. And so it's hard to have conversations, except white people have to be willing to do that, given what people of color have had to endure historic on the receiving end of someone's intentional or unintentional racism or bias.

00;30;07;24 - 00;30;27;20
Gabriel Duran
I think the reason why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism is because they've already gone through life, looking at life through a certain lens, and where they see the system has always supported them and given them the privileges. So it's kind of hard and unfamiliar for them to talk about racism, because they've already have seen a working and functioning system.

00;30;27;22 - 00;30;43;13
Gabriel Duran
But ideally that would be just for them. So they don't understand. And they're uncommon and they're uncomfortable with, being approached and having to deal with these conversations of racism and white privilege when they've already seen a working system for themselves.

00;30;44;06 - 00;31;18;01
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, those were some interesting comments. And, we want to hear what our panelists have to say in response to to some of them. But before we do that, I was holding one question that I wanted to put to Megan. Following on your comment about, well, this isn't a book club, you know, and we weren't going to turn it into that, but I guess you said, Megan, that I your group, Racial Justice Falmouth, has been doing a lot of, consuming media.

00;31;18;01 - 00;31;37;24
Rev. Will Mebane
I think it's the way you put it. And, so I guess the question is, is it making a difference? Is it opening people's eyes? Is it frustrating people? Is it, what how how what are people learning, if anything?

00;31;37;26 - 00;32;01;05
Meghan Hanawalt
I can't answer for the group. I can tell you that we have a steady core of about ten people that come back every month. So I think is making a difference to those. We have some people that have come in and out, so I'm not sure it's helpful to them. It's a lot of work. We started, our book club with, a book club, a songbook.

00;32;01;10 - 00;32;28;07
Meghan Hanawalt
It's a discussion about race, conversation. We read a lot of books, and we started with White Fragility. And a lot of people hated that book. We moved on to. So you want to talk about race? And some people who liked White Fragility didn't like that one. And vice versa. I loved both of them. I feel, actually, we we started with a book that's really changed my perspective on history.

00;32;28;07 - 00;32;51;18
Meghan Hanawalt
And I think that's one of the, you know, we talk about education as a way to change, systemic racism. I'm not sure that's really what we need. But if you want to learn a lot about history, that isn't time. Schools you can read, lives. My teacher told me it's a great, great book, and it makes me want to learn about our real history.

00;32;51;18 - 00;33;16;03
Meghan Hanawalt
Now, we've also talked a lot about how we can affect change. So we're moving into a spot where we're learning about racism, about institutional racism and what we can do to affect change. I think the white people have to do it. I don't think all white people have to, participate in order to change our systems.

00;33;16;05 - 00;33;53;08
Meghan Hanawalt
If they did, we would never, never change because there are so many, white supremacist people that would never give up their power, to women, people of color, indigenous people. You know, it's just that that's not going to happen. So I think by reading consuming the media, we're learning our real history. We're able to talk about it and we're able to stand up to, microaggressions that we witness or have conversations with Facebook friends that maybe they haven't, learned what we've learned.

00;33;53;08 - 00;34;07;07
Meghan Hanawalt
So it's given people in our group the strength and courage to, stand up for against racism become anti-racist. As Abraham Kendi says.

00;34;07;09 - 00;35;00;20
Carmina Mock
Kamala is, it's a coincidence that, you mentioned white fragility, written by, I guess, robbing the Angela. My daughter Lucy mentioned that book this morning to criticize the woman. She said, mama, she is a white woman who charges now $40,000 to go places to talk system. And she has been given red carpet while, black writers even more, successful than than her and accurate haven't been able to get the jobs or, what I mean, so, I haven't read the book.

00;35;00;22 - 00;35;24;00
Carmina Mock
I, I, I, very ignorant about the book. I should read it, but she, my daughter is very much on top of this kind of matters. She is my teacher. She's educated me in those matters, because I am very ignorant and and so, I don't know, I just wanted to say it.

00;35;24;03 - 00;35;37;28
Rev. Will Mebane
She's also very smart, having attended the. She's attending the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, one of my alma maters. So, she's a very smart, you know,

00;35;38;00 - 00;35;59;17
Onjale Scott Price
I think that is a perfect example of white privilege, though, is that you can write about and I've read the book she she writes about, growing up white and everything being colonial. So I don't think she uses that terminology, but everything being based around white and how white is considered the normal. And that's why you look at black and brown.

00;35;59;17 - 00;36;28;10
Onjale Scott Price
People are like, oh, you're exotic is because white is the normal. If you're not white, then you're not normal. You're not the baseline. And so it's, it's an interesting dichotomy of I'm going to tell you guys about how you basically shouldn't be, and yet I'm going to take full advantage of all these opportunities and not make the space for the people of color, because what she what she really could do a really great way she could use her white privilege is if she's contacted by organizations or speaking roles.

00;36;28;12 - 00;36;46;05
Onjale Scott Price
And they say, we want you to talk about these things. She could say, great, how about I point you towards this wonderful black or brown person who could come in and tell you the exact same things, but bring in their actual experience, which she will never be able to do. Maybe somebody should tweet her and tell her that yes.

00;36;46;07 - 00;36;48;12
Carmina Mock
I agree, go ahead.

00;36;48;12 - 00;37;08;20
Meghan Hanawalt
Megan, I have heard her in conversation with Krista Tippett with, I can't remember the gentleman's name, but he was a black man from Minnesota. Maybe, I don't know, but, he was driving the conversation, and she she was essentially the guest. So there's hope. Okay? Okay. Yeah. This is why you don't judge a book by its cover.

00;37;08;20 - 00;37;18;07
Onjale Scott Price
Why? You know, I've done my research, but, hearing hearing those numbers and thinking about the many opportunities that I'm sure that she gets. Yeah. Yes.

00;37;18;10 - 00;37;36;23
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm curious. Megan, you said that there was amongst the group doing the readings. There's some people hate it. I think it was your term. Hate it. White fragility and, others didn't. So what was it that people in your group, which I. I'm going to make an assumption, is mostly white or all white.

00;37;36;23 - 00;37;40;15
Meghan Hanawalt
Why would it depends on the weak most majority. White. Yes.

00;37;40;18 - 00;37;45;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Okay. What what is it that they hated about, white fragility because that that is the book that it's out.

00;37;45;29 - 00;38;09;29
Meghan Hanawalt
Right? Right. Yeah. I don't get it. I don't, I don't understand. I was like, oh yes. Yeah. Right. Yes. Okay. This is, this is what another people I think like I have a really direct style of communication. So I appreciate that. I think some people don't appreciate it. You know, they talk, they watch, you know, so that's their loss.

00;38;09;29 - 00;38;34;24
Meghan Hanawalt
Like, you, it's obviously pretty much everything she writes is true. So if you're going to not like it, I'm sorry. You're just missing out on the educational opportunity or you're so, invested in the power that you have by being a white person. You just you just shut. Shut off. Those are my two, theories about why someone would not like it.

00;38;34;26 - 00;38;52;04
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Sandy, could I ask you, to go back to the question from that, we heard, some folks from the street, respond to, why is it so hard for white folks to talk about race, racism?

00;38;52;07 - 00;39;26;04
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Well, I think one reason is because they have to confront their own biases and prejudices, and and that's difficult. They have to look themselves in the mirror and really think about how do I present myself to the world, to the black community and to other people of color in or I exclude myself from people unlike myself by living in a highly segregated neighborhood and not socializing with people who are different from myself.

00;39;26;06 - 00;39;59;22
Sandra Faiman-Silva
And they then they have to start thinking about, well, why do we have racism? And what can I do about it? And again, it's a very uncomfortable issue, as you say, this woman, the the author of White Fragility, makes huge honoraria. And, you know, maybe she donates all the money to a worthy progressive causes. I mean, you know, maybe we'll I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but most likely she does it.

00;39;59;24 - 00;40;31;09
Sandra Faiman-Silva
So, we have to confront the fact that the system as it is, is good for white people. It privileges white people. It you know, we collectively I'm white. We benefit from it. So it makes you feel very uncomfortable thinking about, well, in order for society to really, really overcome racism, we have to dismantle it. We have to equalize income.

00;40;31;11 - 00;41;05;00
Sandra Faiman-Silva
We have to get rid of economic privilege. We have to make affirmative action even stronger rather than getting rid of it, which we did during this administration. We have to make voting accessible, more accessible while we're dismantling voting rights. So these people are, you know, into denial. And it's a very comfortable way to be. It's a comfortable place to be.

00;41;05;29 - 00;41;26;20
Onjale Scott Price
I, I'd like to pose another, question to the whole panel is something that George mentioned. Just a few minutes ago. We heard him say that, white people often say, well, I don't have white privilege because I've struggled. And so if there's a systems in place, you know, like, how is it that I've still struggled to do that?

00;41;26;23 - 00;41;41;29
Onjale Scott Price
Have any of you experience talking to people specifically about white privilege in these systems and them saying, but my life hasn't been all that easy, so I definitely don't have white privilege, and I just open it up to anyone who.

00;41;42;01 - 00;42;18;08
Carmina Mock
If I may, I think, I feel that, in general, if you wake up every morning thinking that you are not going to be threatened or that you are not a threat, your life is going to be a lot easier. So it's less of a struggle to begin with. I, I know that, black people, need to fight a lot harder to get, and I would say a million times harder to get where white people are.

00;42;18;10 - 00;42;46;12
Carmina Mock
And, and even though, we all have our sufferings and our fights and our problems, I would never dare to compare my issue of my my problems with what? A black person or a Native American or, a queer person or a gay person fight, every day. Again, going back to my daughter in North Carolina.

00;42;46;12 - 00;43;16;19
Carmina Mock
She's queer. She lives with a wonderful woman who is also a tremendous activist. And now I'm giving a little taste of what it is to worried about my children, because, as you probably remember. Well, the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill is the, is staffed by white supremacists. The university is very biased. And, and there are rallies in the campus often.

00;43;16;21 - 00;43;39;27
Carmina Mock
And the white supremacists are right there, you know, with their flags, with their guns. And my daughter and her woman are always up the front with the multi-colored flag. And, and I and I feel the years that she was, working in, Beirut in Lebanon, I was less worried that I am now with her living in North Carolina.

00;43;39;27 - 00;43;48;17
Carmina Mock
It's the truth. So, yeah. I think, if that answers a little of what you were asking. Yeah.

00;43;48;20 - 00;43;50;28
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Absolutely.

00;43;51;01 - 00;44;15;19
Meghan Hanawalt
Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Meghan, I love how George's reference about the bike bicycling with the wind, with the headwind or tailwind. I think it really brings home the fact that your everyone's working. Everyone's riding on the bike. You know, someone someone, who's white, you know, at least they have a tailwind, you know, and you, you don't notice it because you're biking.

00;44;15;19 - 00;44;44;02
Meghan Hanawalt
So, I think the challenge with people that compare their suffering to, Person of Colors, additional burden is it's not it's not a fair comparison because the white person is still white. They have privilege, they have underprivileged, they get doors open for them. They get away with things. They get probably get more money. They probably can live in better places, you know, just because they're white.

00;44;44;04 - 00;45;07;04
Meghan Hanawalt
The the person of color, or black? Black person. It doesn't they, you know, they have a lot more challenges than that white person. I always, I haven't started doing this yet, but I'm planning to. Someone thinks, you know, someone who's white complains about their their burden or their challenges. And, you know, I have a tough.

00;45;07;04 - 00;45;34;03
Meghan Hanawalt
So, why don't I get special treatment? It's like, well, would you want to be black? Would you be black? And, you know, you know what the answer is going to be? Because, you know, even if we haven't consumed the media or done the thinking or processing, I can't I can't imagine anyone saying yes to that, because we live in a society where white has more, has more.

00;45;34;06 - 00;45;35;20
Carmina Mock
Yeah. Yeah.

00;45;35;23 - 00;46;14;01
Onjale Scott Price
Absolutely. Let me pose. What my friend calls a spicy hot take. That's when he has a an opinion or a thought that may not, may not go with the general consensus. Do we think there's any spaces where there isn't white privilege specifically? I'll talk specifically about, our community and our and our country. Are there any spaces where we don't see being white as a privilege or any spaces where, white privilege is reduced?

00;46;14;04 - 00;46;18;21
Rev. Will Mebane
That is a question. Yeah, I'll go ahead. Sandy.

00;46;18;24 - 00;46;49;26
Sandra Faiman-Silva
Not really. If we're thinking about structures of society, I think there are fallacies. For example, education is supposed to be an equalizer. And if if minorities seek education and become educated, then that will equalize income. It will equalize opportunity and so forth. But people don't remember that transgenerational wealth is what gets people into college and gets people into the middle class.

00;46;49;26 - 00;47;25;08
Sandra Faiman-Silva
And the upper classes. I do think that the system that we live within oppresses white people. To, Ed Markey likes to give the example that the three richest people in the United States control 50% of the as much wealth as the bottom 50% of Americans. Well, so there's, you know, poverty in the white community. There's, obviously ignorance, but there's lack of education in the white community there.

00;47;25;08 - 00;48;02;06
Sandra Faiman-Silva
There's poor housing, and so forth. But white people have the advantage of being white, and it's their whiteness that makes a person like Donald Trump very attractive to the get to them, because it gives them a sense of their superiority over minorities, immigrants, black people, poor people, Native Americans, and so forth. So I think, you know, we need radical structural change in order to really do this.

00;48;02;06 - 00;48;29;27
Sandra Faiman-Silva
And one point I wanted to make was that the Black Lives Matter movement says we, you know, people of color should should be the voices that we need as people of color need to take leadership roles. We need to be in front. We need to be expressing our grievances and sitting at the table of decision making. And I think that's really an important issue.

00;48;30;00 - 00;49;03;03
Carmina Mock
If I may. Absolutely. I, I, I often wonder, when I see the Black Lives Matter with a lot of white people around, including myself, something that I, been able to go. We white people are so spoiled, and we like to feel good about ourselves. And I wonder how many of us have gone to those rallies just because of the feeling of, I am a good person, I am not racist.

00;49;03;05 - 00;49;41;29
Carmina Mock
How much do we care about, what is going on inside the minds and hearts of the black community? And again, in order to to ask ourselves those questions means to confront ourselves with, with our algorithms and with our ignorance, with our selfishness. But sooner or later, again, we have to come to terms with that and put our, energy into, doing our homework and listen for to what black voices have.

00;49;41;29 - 00;50;20;13
Carmina Mock
We need to come to the surface. We need to listen the my my message here. Now, is that, Trump. If we only blame him if. Very unfair. He's a monster. We all know that. But, white people who support them and I guess some black are part of the machine that keeps that monster active. And I one thing I have very clear in my mind, I don't want to be part of that, machinery.

00;50;20;16 - 00;51;00;07
Carmina Mock
What I would like to do is to present myself in the black community and say, I'm here at your service, use me in the best way you think and feel I can serve you. I don't have the right to go places and fix things that I am so ignorant about it. Like when my daughter Lucy was again going to the refugee camp in Beirut, we vacationing with her master's degree from Harvard University in Education, thinking that she was going to change the lives of, the refugees.

00;51;00;09 - 00;51;28;05
Carmina Mock
And she got the first love on her face that you cannot measure people you don't know anything about, with the same barometer that they measure posttraumatic stress disorder in children in America. She had to give away all that, arrogance and say, now I'm here to listen to these people, to these mothers, to these teachers, and let me know what I can do to be of use.

00;51;28;08 - 00;51;49;16
Carmina Mock
And the same thing I tell you, in the black community, I want you to, to work at your service, but I don't want I don't want you to take any initiative. I want to listen to you with all my heart. And I want you to be at your service.

00;51;49;18 - 00;52;18;25
Meghan Hanawalt
And, Megan, is it the spicy hot question? Hot. Spicy. Spicy. Hot. Take. Spicy. Classic. I do not know of any, spaces in our community where white privilege doesn't exist, but I really hope that there are some. I know that my my life doesn't overlap with everyone in town, so I really hope that there are places where communities of color can,

00;52;18;28 - 00;52;21;03
Carmina Mock
Have.

00;52;21;06 - 00;52;35;17
Onjale Scott Price
The peace and, community with each other where there, you know, we're not there. I hope that's there.

00;52;35;19 - 00;52;36;21
Carmina Mock
So.

00;52;36;23 - 00;52;38;24
Onjale Scott Price
Oh, I'm so going to say.

00;52;38;26 - 00;52;44;07
Sandra Faiman-Silva
I mean, separate but equal, I guess, is what we're striving for.

00;52;44;09 - 00;52;46;15
Carmina Mock
It's.

00;52;46;17 - 00;53;02;25
Sandra Faiman-Silva
And, you know, it's a member of the Jewish community, That's the legacy of love, discrimination, generations of discrimination is separateness.

00;53;02;28 - 00;53;18;25
Onjale Scott Price
So. And, Megan, you can correct me if I'm wrong. The way that I look at what what Megan said is. And I understand where you coming from, Sandy, about being separate. But I do think it's important for people of color, specifically black people in this community, to have a safe space where we can have those kinds of conversations.

00;53;18;25 - 00;53;42;14
Onjale Scott Price
That's why I think, like affinity groups and things like that within organizations, within universities and, and jobs are really important because there are there is something to be said and a encouragement that comes from knowing that you're not the only one dealing with certain things and knowing that there are other people who are going through or have gone through the same thing who can support you.

00;53;42;22 - 00;54;05;24
Onjale Scott Price
So while I, I totally understand, not separate but equal, because that we know does not work, I do think there needs to be spaces where people can be open about what they're going through, and to encourage each other and just to feel really safe in those spaces in the. And I wanted to comment on I forget who said it now.

00;54;05;24 - 00;54;33;02
Onjale Scott Price
I'm sorry. There's this idea that if you are racist, you are a bad person. And there and people, specifically white people, don't want to admit to ever having racist ideas or being in racist situations or not standing up against racism because they don't want to be a bad person. So I think one thing that we need to talk about more is you can have racist ideas and you can do racist things and not necessarily be a bad person.

00;54;33;02 - 00;54;52;00
Onjale Scott Price
Like those two things don't always have to be linked. Like I. I am not homophobic by any means, but I have definitely had moments where I've thought something and thought, oh well, okay, let's back up. Why did I think that? Where did that come from? How do I make sure? I don't think that again? And I would not call myself a bad person.

00;54;52;00 - 00;55;12;07
Onjale Scott Price
It just means that the way that I was raised in the communities that I've lived in and the experiences that I've had have taught me to think a certain way. And that's that's just that's just homophobia. If we talk about racism and how that's embedded in everything, we just talked about it in our schools and our policing, in all of our systems.

00;55;12;09 - 00;55;28;16
Onjale Scott Price
There is no way you're not going to not think something racist at some point. I think the important thing is to know that just because you have those thoughts, or you don't act on something that you see as racist, doesn't mean you're a bad person, just means you need you got a little bit more work to do. Yeah.

00;55;28;16 - 00;55;53;04
Meghan Hanawalt
Megan, I agree. And, does that mean our system where we're, at our racial justice families discussions? We somewhat jokingly, but some somewhat seriously say we should start off like they do in AA and say, my name is Megan and I'm a racist because we are. We all are. And then we can figure out how to become anti-racist.

00;55;53;07 - 00;55;59;09
Onjale Scott Price
Yeah. How is it exactly? Acknowledgment. We have to exist, right? Yeah. Right. Right.

00;55;59;11 - 00;56;00;23
Carmina Mock
Yeah.

00;56;00;25 - 00;56;31;03
Rev. Will Mebane
But Megan said early on that, it takes work. And that's what I've been hearing you all share in these last comments. The only place I know that, is not infiltrated by, white privilege or white privilege is not dominant. Is in my home. That's about the only place. And there are times when it even creeps in.

00;56;31;05 - 00;56;46;13
Rev. Will Mebane
But here. But, that's the only place I can think of. And by the way, Carmina, since you've extended yourself to work with, black and brown folks, I've got your number. I got your email. So, we're going to put you to work.

00;56;46;16 - 00;56;53;14
Carmina Mock
It's release. I'm ready. I'm all yours.

00;56;53;17 - 00;57;16;02
Onjale Scott Price
I love to hear it. Well, I really want to thank all of you for taking the time to talk to us, to be so open with us today. I really think it's been a great conversation, and I hope that those watching at home also feel like it's been a great conversation. And you continue these conversations amongst yourselves with your family and your friends, especially that one friend who you know, probably wouldn't watch the show, and that one uncle that always says something crazy.

00;57;16;04 - 00;57;43;28
Onjale Scott Price
So I hope that that we all continue these conversations in a special thank you to Deb Rogers and Allen Russell and FCTV making sure that this happens. And I don't think we've yet decided on next month's topic, so it'll be a surprise. But we look forward to seeing you all there. Thank you.

00;57;44;00 - 00;57;45;26
Onjale Scott Price
I.