00;00;10;27 - 00;00;46;13
Onjalé Scott Price
Welcome back. Thank you for joining us for another exciting episode of The Conversation. I'm your co-host, Angela Scott Pryce, with the illustrious, wonderful, fantastic reverend Will Melvin. Yeah. That guy, that guy. We're really excited about today's show. We have a wonderful guest list for you all for a very interesting topic. Drumroll, please. Racism and politics. This is going to be a really interesting conversation and I'm really looking forward to it.

00;00;46;13 - 00;01;00;24
Onjalé Scott Price
So let's jump right in. And we are going to go to our person on the street and ask them, where do you see racism in politics? Let's get started.

00;01;00;26 - 00;01;08;04
Stephen Tom
My knee jerk reaction is everywhere in politics because,

00;01;08;07 - 00;01;09;22
Stephen Tom
The American.

00;01;09;24 - 00;01;10;28
Stephen Tom
Political system.

00;01;10;28 - 00;01;11;06
Stephen Tom
Was.

00;01;11;06 - 00;01;16;08
Stephen Tom
Obviously substantially formed by,

00;01;16;10 - 00;01;22;18
Stephen Tom
White, if I might say, Western European.

00;01;22;20 - 00;01;24;11
Stephen Tom
Political activists.

00;01;24;13 - 00;01;26;05
Stephen Tom
And.

00;01;26;08 - 00;01;44;27
Stephen Tom
Though I'm sure they didn't necessarily intend it, at least not wholeheartedly. Just by virtue of having its foundation so solidly, in white leadership, there was a certain amount of racism that was embedded, in our founding fathers.

00;01;45;00 - 00;01;46;16
Stephen Tom
I think a lot of people know that many.

00;01;46;16 - 00;01;54;13
Stephen Tom
Of them were slave owners. But that is certainly not a comment on my part to take away from.

00;01;54;13 - 00;01;56;11
Stephen Tom
All that they,

00;01;56;13 - 00;02;24;13
Stephen Tom
All that they did. But the, the fact that racism, entered our political system early on, and has persisted for so many years. I think is, an unfortunate confirmation that, it is embedded in our political system.

00;02;24;15 - 00;02;59;08
Megan English Braga
Like racism in society. It permeates all of our politics. But one, you know, play sort of locally in particular that we see, is just that, you know, a lot of times when we, we try to talk about issues, like affordable housing, we have folks use language that's kind of code. We, you know, here, folks, use that coded language, that othering language that is, you know, euphemisms for, talking about, housing in ways where they're saying, oh, we love affordable housing, but just not here.

00;02;59;08 - 00;03;24;28
Megan English Braga
Those type of development, those type of people. And I think the root of that really is, you know, something that is based in racism class is classism as well. But I have consistent heard that and those objections have consistently been some of the barriers to creating more affordable housing. And that's just kind of one of the issues based places where I have seen that in local politics.

00;03;25;00 - 00;03;31;27
Megan English Braga
But I think racism permeates politics at every level, just as it does, throughout our society.

00;03;31;29 - 00;03;47;23
Onjalé Scott Price
So we've heard from our people on the street the answer to the question, where do you see racism in politics? As a local politician, I can tell you that this is going to be an interesting conversation because I know I have a lot to say about it, and I'm sure our panelists do.

00;03;47;26 - 00;04;08;11
Onjalé Scott Price
So I'd like to start with Samuel. Samuel Gebru is a senior fellow at the center for State Policy Analysis at Tufts University. And so, Samuel, we're very excited to have you with us. And I'd like to pass it over to you to either tell us, where do you see racism in politics or to comment on anything that the people on the street had to say about that question?

00;04;08;13 - 00;04;38;09
Samuel Gebru
Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciated, the responses, that were provided, especially the gentleman, in the beginning who, rightfully said, you know, this country was founded, by, slave owners. It was founded by, white men, who, codified, laws that benefited them. Frankly, and it didn't even benefit all white people who had benefited, property owning white people.

00;04;38;12 - 00;05;09;07
Samuel Gebru
And that's the sort of, crux of, United States. Obviously, you know, in the centuries since, you know, we've, done a good job in, sort of, you know, trying to perfect this, this union. The job isn't done yet. But, what gives me hope is that every generation seems to, really take the baton, and interest a little bit, towards, justice and and equity.

00;05;09;07 - 00;05;38;23
Samuel Gebru
And so, you know, racism is baked into law. It's, codified, into, every aspect of our life, here in the United States and really, by that virtue, throughout the world as well. But it doesn't have to be that way. You know, policy violence, which is, you know, the term that I and many others like to use, was codified through law, and, and it couldn't and it can be dismantled, through laws as well.

00;05;38;24 - 00;06;15;24
Samuel Gebru
So, you know, for me, as someone who, looks at politics and public policy, as a way to really move mountains, as a way to improve people's lives, I see it as an opportunity, to, you know, take a look at the past, studied the injustices, and also identify, ways that we can be better, and so, while racism does exist, everywhere in politics, and everywhere, whether it's in our economy, homeownership, academia, you know, you, you name it, it doesn't have to be that way.

00;06;15;26 - 00;06;40;22
Samuel Gebru
And, it's really up to us to try to find those avenues to, bridge divides. And, you know, sometimes it's as simple as just having a cup of coffee with somebody, and just building those bridges, and, and, being able to understand each other, and then realizing that at the end of the day, you know, as people, we have a lot more in common than what divides us.

00;06;40;24 - 00;07;10;08
Onjalé Scott Price
But that last statement was definitely a powerful one. We have more in common than what divides us. And I think what we did have a show already, that was talking across the aisle, and it was talking about how do we divide that gap between, you know, the different political parties in the US and them? And I think that, you know, like you said, that's something that we need to work on to be able to break down some of these, these barriers and some of these, you know, structures that have been built specifically, race based.

00;07;10;09 - 00;07;30;01
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. I'd like to ask Shay to comment on where you see racism in politics. Shay, we're glad to have you in Falmouth. I know that you came here from Jamaica about nine years ago and gotten involved in the community and are now running for the found the school committee. So good luck with that race. And, glad to have you if you want to share.

00;07;30;07 - 00;07;34;06
Onjalé Scott Price
Where do you see racism in politics?

00;07;34;08 - 00;08;14;15
Shea Brown-Kirlew
Oh, thank you for having me. Yes. Racism is in politics. And as my grandmother always said, if the top is dirty, the bottom is going to be dirty. So basically, what we have to do is try to fix the top. Then when the stream sort of run the water become clear. So we have clean water and the racism started a long time ago and.

00;08;14;18 - 00;08;55;15
Shea Brown-Kirlew
In some aspect you could see where they trying to fix it is not come the way maybe we want to, but as we are from all different backgrounds and if we just try to see each other point of view and understand that each person have a different feeling and and look at situation differently and we can consider each other about how they feel about the way they be talked to or look upon.

00;08;55;18 - 00;09;33;00
Shea Brown-Kirlew
And we can fix this. It may take time, but it can be done. And racism is not something that we just, when we it was teach to. So now we have to start back from the younger generation. And so where we can try to demolish this from our system. Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think about what, what Steve said.

00;09;33;04 - 00;09;52;03
Onjalé Scott Price
Where he said that, you know, these systems were created by a very particular group of people. And, Sam, you you touched on this as well. And who didn't consider anyone else's point of view, did not consider how the laws would affect people that were not like them. And that's why it's so important to have a diverse group of people working on politics.

00;09;52;03 - 00;10;02;19
Onjalé Scott Price
So you have those different perspectives and those different points of view. What do you think of what's going on over there in your mind?

00;10;02;22 - 00;10;50;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, I just very much appreciate what Shay and Samuel have shared, as well as what Steven and Megan shared from the, from the street, you know, racism, as Steven said, is embedded, is just part of of all aspects of politics and, well, Megan said something similarly. She said, you know, racism, racism permeates all of politics. And, I won't go and rehash what they said, and I won't spend a lot of time looking in the past at how the so-called founding fathers, codified racism in, in politics.

00;10;50;18 - 00;11;20;06
Rev. Will Mebane
I'll move a little farther, ahead. And so those people who watch this program know that I was raised in the Jim Crow South. And so it was another example of racism being codified in, by politicians in, in law. But then I move even, even closer to today or to today and think about where's racism in politics.

00;11;20;08 - 00;11;52;00
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, it's in our zoning laws. And, how, what can be built where and and by whom? And, whether it's in, money that's distributed for education, politicians choose to put money, in some places, more than they do in other places or in the U.S. and some communities have property taxes to determine, how much money goes into a school system.

00;11;52;02 - 00;12;16;20
Rev. Will Mebane
Is all based upon a racist, a racist system today where we're looking in and we're hearing a lot about the voter suppression, and we're hearing about gerrymandering and redistricting. Redistricting of of, congressional seats. The, those,

00;12;16;22 - 00;12;44;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Those maps are being drawn with an eye towards, race. And who's in those those districts and, I think as in Florida, where the governor drew a map where that would completely eliminate to, representatives from the state of, state of Florida who happen to be, don't happen to be no more. That happens to be one thing or another, but they are, African-Americans.

00;12;44;10 - 00;13;08;29
Rev. Will Mebane
And, people in Florida and I, I certainly agree, I see that as a racist act. And even in the abortion debate that's going on right now about whether versus Wade is going to be, a thing of the past, that Supreme Court decision is, there's racism in that, political debate and discussion. Why?

00;13;08;29 - 00;13;55;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Because, if Rob is, that doesn't exist anymore, those protections are there anymore. Guess who is going to hurt more than anyone else? Who's going to hurt poor people? And it's going to hurt black and brown people more than anybody else, right? I think when I think about racism in politics, I think about the Covid 19 pandemic, when, the pandemic hit, there are a lot of discussions about where the money was going into what kind of communities, was the money being said to, mitigate against, against Covid 19 and, you know, the Biden administration had to bring in a person, specifically to take a look at making sure

00;13;55;28 - 00;14;26;16
Rev. Will Mebane
that the black and brown communities were not overlooked. We see it in, this whole debate among politicians about CRT critical race theory. Those racism is part of that, discussion in, in politics. So, as, as Stephen Tom said, it's it's everywhere is embedded in, in our politics. And so,

00;14;26;18 - 00;15;02;01
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, all of that, everything you just said, all of it. Interestingly, if we could touch on, the, the abortion debate, the, the row overturning, and the way I look at that is that, to me is a specific attack on black women. Obviously, it affects any woman who has an unwanted pregnancy for any reason. We think about the the medical progress that was made in gynecology was was done on black women without their consent, like their bodies were property.

00;15;02;03 - 00;15;22;24
Onjalé Scott Price
And we have come as far as we've come in gynecology because of that. And I know that there were also horrific things that were done in the Holocaust to the Jewish people, and I don't want to minimize that. But, but here in the States, it was up until, I think, the 19th 20th century that some of those things were still done, still forced, and unwanted sterilization of black women.

00;15;22;24 - 00;15;45;13
Onjalé Scott Price
So when I think about the government and these policies taking over control over my body as a woman, as a black woman, that that's what I think about, I think about this is not necessarily new, but we've done this before. We've taken over women's bodies before, and we agreed that it was horrible then. So, so why is it different now?

00;15;45;15 - 00;16;03;05
Onjalé Scott Price
I don't mean to get on my high horse about that, but but since you brought it up, you open that can of worms. So I'll, I'll move on a little bit. I think that I'd like to hear a little bit from Samuel, some more thoughts about this, because I know that you are an advocate for, social justice.

00;16;03;05 - 00;16;27;07
Onjalé Scott Price
And you recently put together the Massachusetts Black Lawmakers roundtable that I had the privilege of participating in, which brought together elected Massachusetts leaders from around the state. And so I'm I'm curious to hear a little bit about the work that you do. And if you encounter, blatant or subversive racism when you're trying to get your work done, over there at Tufts.

00;16;27;09 - 00;16;48;19
Samuel Gebru
Well, I'm new at Tufts, so, I can't really speak to, you know, my experience here yet. But, enjoying it so far. And, you know, really just, grateful, to the university, and to to the people of the Tisch College of Civic Life, for, providing me with the resources, to do my work.

00;16;48;21 - 00;17;29;16
Samuel Gebru
You know, so I joined, Tufts University in January, as a nonresident senior fellow at the center for State Policy Analysis, CcpA or CcpA. That's, how we call it. And, CcpA is, you know, just a terrific think tank. It's been around since 2020. And, the goal is to, the purpose, of course, was to provide live analysis, to, politicians in Massachusetts, particularly state, lawmakers, but all lawmakers on, the various key issues, before them, whether these are, legislative issues or ballot questions.

00;17;29;18 - 00;17;57;02
Samuel Gebru
And, just, you know, the importance of having real time analysis, and feedback is, is critical. You know, our lawmakers need that information, independent information, to be able to make decisions. But also, the public needs that information as well to, be able to, gauge the tradeoffs, of different issues. And to also, assess how they want to be engaged civically in the, in the process as well.

00;17;57;09 - 00;18;22;10
Samuel Gebru
So, you know, it's it's a terrific, organizations, a terrific think tank that, that, serves, the people and, and, lawmakers here in Massachusetts. And so in joining CcpA in January, you know, I've been, working to identify different issues, that I'm interested in, that also overlap with CcpA and with the College of Civic Life.

00;18;22;12 - 00;18;43;22
Samuel Gebru
And, you know, one of the things that I've wanted to do, for a while is, bring together, black lawmakers in Massachusetts. And, really to provide them with, two big things. One is just a platform to get to know each other. I think, there's a lot of power and social capital just getting to know people.

00;18;43;24 - 00;19;06;25
Samuel Gebru
You know, you never know what sort of ideas or innovations can come out, when you, put people in the same room together. And then secondly, to, leverage the, the resources and the intellectual capital here at Tufts University, to support those lawmakers in their work and their, decision making. And so, you know, you talk about maternal health, for instance.

00;19;06;28 - 00;19;34;19
Samuel Gebru
Well, you know, the Tufts University School of Medicine, just launched a, center for black, reproductive Health and Justice. And, you know, it's it's headed by a black woman, an obstetrician gynecologist who is leading this work. And the center is not just going to focus on Massachusetts, but nationally, and provide leadership and, advocacy at a national level.

00;19;34;21 - 00;19;54;07
Samuel Gebru
And so, you know, the the resources at Tufts are, immense. You know, it's, it has the feel of a liberal arts college, but it's also, a top tier, research university. So with that comes a variety of, departments and schools and centers and think tanks and whatnot. And so, that's really exciting.

00;19;54;07 - 00;20;13;13
Samuel Gebru
And so, you know, just, you know, in my role here again, it's, I'm working to incubate a few, projects. And, the, the Black lawmakers roundtable is the first of a few that that I'll be launching. In the coming months. And, was really excited, and thank you to you for participating in it.

00;20;13;13 - 00;20;56;15
Samuel Gebru
Obviously, you know, we were able to welcome 20 lawmakers, to, Tufts University, last month, on April 25th, we, had a wonderful lunch, discussion. And then there were another 29 lawmakers who could not make it that day but wanted to participate. And so, all in all, you know, we're we're dealing with a, fantastic cohort of 49, black lawmakers at all levels of government, from from federal, with Ayanna Pressley in the United States Congress, all the way down to, school board, and, and, county government and, towns and our cities and ever in between.

00;20;56;15 - 00;21;36;13
Samuel Gebru
And so just really excited about, the process and, and the ability to build these bridges. And again, when we think about, representation and, I believe it is Megan that said this, you know, it's just it's so important to have people at that table and, you know, making those decisions. And so, to quite literally have, you know, a table of 20 dynamic, black lawmakers from all parts of Massachusetts, as far west as Great Barrington, all the way to, to to Boston, was really inspiring, to see everybody here from, the South Shore, from the Cape, all the way to, the North Shore.

00;21;36;13 - 00;21;43;18
Samuel Gebru
So, really excited by what's to come and, looking forward to, what those lawmakers choose to do.

00;21;43;20 - 00;22;04;24
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, that was a it was a really awesome, awesome event. And I didn't mean to sound like I assumed that you were dealing with racism yourself at Tufts. I, I was meeting more about when when you're doing the work and you're looking for places to, to do research or you're trying to find out information, as you said, for these policies and these laws that are that are coming out.

00;22;04;26 - 00;22;24;14
Onjalé Scott Price
Have you found that it's difficult to get some of the information that you're looking for, or have you found that in some of the laws that you're reviewing or the policies that you're reviewing, some of them are are blatantly racist, but using perhaps, what was the phrase Megan said, coded language. So that's kind of what I'm wondering.

00;22;24;14 - 00;22;29;09
Onjalé Scott Price
Are you are you running into that in the work that you're doing right now?

00;22;29;12 - 00;22;55;22
Samuel Gebru
So, you know, there are many examples where, you know, here in Massachusetts, we, we pride ourselves on being the sort of liberal utopia, where, you know, everybody sort of sits around and, you know, we're all, you know, you lovey dovey kumbaya, whatever. And, you know, to an extent that, that is true. I mean, this state does have a solid reputation of being the first in a variety of, categories.

00;22;55;25 - 00;23;22;26
Samuel Gebru
But, you know, I think we we tend to be very complacent in that, but, you know, on, on any given day, you know, you are dealing with blindspots and, you know, one doesn't necessarily have to be intentionally racist. I don't think that's, what we see often. I think there are many people who are intentionally racist who are intentionally sexist or whatever.

00;23;22;28 - 00;23;49;04
Samuel Gebru
But but I think, you know, oftentimes what we see is just people with blind spots and, you know, surely as, as, as a man, I have my blind spots as well. And so, you know, when when you talk to certain decision makers who, are thinking about a particular or, bill or an ordinance or a budget line item or something, any sort of policy initiative, you know, they may think it it's the greatest idea since sliced bread.

00;23;49;06 - 00;24;07;12
Samuel Gebru
But then you start really sort of peeling through the layers and then you realize, well, you know, you didn't really think through it, properly or you didn't consult certain groups. So you didn't, you know, strengthen, certain issues. You know, Reverend, you talked about housing. This is a key issue. It's a very thorny issue in Massachusetts.

00;24;07;12 - 00;24;28;27
Samuel Gebru
And and, you know, everywhere, obviously, in the country where, you have certain urban areas, that are picking up the slack and, a lot of, suburban, communities, that just simply refuse to build, more housing. And so this, this has become a real sort of tense, issue for a lot of people. And, you know, housing is, an area that's, very important to me.

00;24;28;27 - 00;25;03;13
Samuel Gebru
It's near and dear to me. It's it's an issue that, I've been involved in for, for several years now. Around, the creation of more affordable housing, and really the creation of more homeownership, opportunities as well. And so, when, when we have you know, some well-off communities that actively resist, to, create more, housing, and then, you know, really burdening, already densely populated, cities, and leaving it to them exclusively to do the work.

00;25;03;15 - 00;25;23;24
Samuel Gebru
That's just unfair. You know? And so, you know, that's a common sort of tense issue. And, you know, to his credit, Governor Charlie Baker has been a really strong leader, when it comes to, housing issues and working with, housing advocates and lawyers, legislators and, and others to, make this issue, more prominent.

00;25;23;24 - 00;25;42;02
Samuel Gebru
And so, you know, like, this is just, you know, one of many issues, the other one, that always comes up as well as, with the environmental, community, environmental justice when, you know, when we talk about this, oftentimes, you know, you're in a room with predominantly white people, talking about the needs of, people of color.

00;25;42;02 - 00;26;20;01
Samuel Gebru
And so it's just important to, you know, add, you know, nuance to those conversations and really be intentional about who is sitting there. So it's not necessarily like, oh, this is like mean hearted racism. It's just, you know, little blind spots that can actually make a massive impact when it comes to determining policy. And, and, you know, it's the difference between, input and feedback, you know, do I bring you when at the input level when I, when, when we're really just had a blank slate and we're trying to work together or do I bring you in at feedback level where I already have an idea and it's already written somewhere,

00;26;20;01 - 00;26;46;06
Samuel Gebru
and I just want to check off a box that I spoke to you. And so, you know, those are issues, common, you know, that I see, often, and, you know, just, you know, and to the point of, you know, in my particular work, you know, not every university would just quickly embrace, the idea of bringing black lawmakers together or, bringing, someone like me, on campus or, you know, whatever.

00;26;46;06 - 00;27;16;18
Samuel Gebru
And so, that, you know, Tufts was really quick to, create this opportunity for me. You know, the, the director at ceasefire added Harwood's, the dean at the College of Civic Life. Dana Cunningham, you know, just having that vision and that willingness to support, my ideas, is super important. And so, you know, having, you know, people at the top who sort of see the vision, who understand the vision, it's critical, you know, when we have the roundtable, the, you know, the president of Tufts University was with us the entire time.

00;27;16;20 - 00;27;32;28
Samuel Gebru
You know, he thought it was really important for him, you know, for himself to be there, not just to give, you know, five minute remarks and leave, but to actually sit and observe. And so, you know, modeling that good behavior and being intentional about it is super important. And it's not something you see every day.

00;27;32;28 - 00;27;34;09
Samuel Gebru
So, yeah.

00;27;34;09 - 00;27;54;15
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, yeah. All good points and especially the point about the president of Tufts, participating. I was very glad to see that there's that institutional leadership. It's something that we talk about here in Falmouth is having institutional leadership. So the leadership on like the Select board or share running for, School Committee, that leadership is really important. And to bring in those perspectives.

00;27;54;18 - 00;28;15;27
Onjalé Scott Price
So I'd like to ask if you could tell us, talk a little bit about, you running for the school board and what kind of change you're hoping to see. I know that when I first learned, that's all committee members were elected. I was a bit surprised by that. I always, where I'm from, just assumed that if you were just interested in doing stuff for the schools, you just kind of volunteered.

00;28;15;29 - 00;28;38;09
Onjalé Scott Price
And so there's a cross between the schools that we think of, of course, as academic institutions and schools and nurturing environments. But then we have the school committee, which is elected, which becomes a political position. So could you share a little bit, about your interest in being on the school committee and, and how I guess, campaigning has been going for you.

00;28;38;12 - 00;29;15;02
Shea Brown-Kirlew
Okay. So, me running for school committee, so I've had, I'm already in the system. I'm already, on the EO. That's the the English learning language. And so I'm involved. So with that and then with my children and then with different children who I meet up with, who I talk with. So it just gives me that drive that I can do more awesome in the, in the school system, which I am happy to do it.

00;29;15;02 - 00;29;40;05
Shea Brown-Kirlew
I'm passionate about it. I'm willing to learn because there are a lot to be learned, and I'm fine with that. And with the campaign, it's going good. I have a lot of support. People who I never knew want to reaching out to me, to help me and all of that, and they believe in me. And that's powerful.

00;29;40;08 - 00;30;08;26
Shea Brown-Kirlew
Someone who they never know finally get to meet her. And then they, you know, have that passion about that person. So I feel really, really happy about it and I'm really grateful about it. So and then. What I want to bring in the school system, I have to wait till I get on the school board to see what is what before I can save so and so.

00;30;08;28 - 00;30;32;14
Shea Brown-Kirlew
I don't want to put it out there yet until I when I reach in the system where I see what is what I have to listen for, what is what and observe before I can see this or I can see that. So I'm on the whole with that I hear you. Yeah. So like I said, I was, I was surprised that the school committee is in a elected position.

00;30;32;14 - 00;30;57;18
Onjalé Scott Price
I think it's great, though, because I think it gives an opportunity for the people of families to be involved in their local politics. And not just people who have children in the school system, because as we know, as we've been discussing, you know, the way that racism has really built itself into our policies and our laws is by not having that representation, not having people to to put in their input from, from different views.

00;30;57;18 - 00;31;21;28
Onjalé Scott Price
And so even though, like I don't have children in the school system, it's important to me because they're part of my, my community and I want to make sure that they're represented. And, you know, that I can have my voice heard for the students and for the future of our community because like Samuel said at the beginning, you know, the only way that we are going to remove these barriers of racism in our politics is by getting involved and making some of that change.

00;31;21;28 - 00;31;39;18
Onjalé Scott Price
And I have a lot of faith in in the, I will say, the younger generations. Although sometimes I look around and realize I am the younger generation in families, but the younger, the younger generations, that are going to come up behind us and, and really be putting in the work and standing on our shoulders and on our backs of the work that we've done.

00;31;39;21 - 00;32;02;03
Onjalé Scott Price
And so it's imperative that we do good work, in removing some of these barriers and, and having these conversations where we can really tease out the places that we see racism in politics to ensure that we don't perpetuate those same, those same issues. You.

00;32;02;05 - 00;32;33;04
Rev. Will Mebane
Andrew, I have a I'm sitting on a question that I want to get, to Samuel. You know, Samuel, you've you've said several times in your remarks that, people have blind spots and it's the blind spots that, perpetuate, racist behavior, racist decision making. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's that's sort of how I heard it.

00;32;33;07 - 00;33;04;10
Rev. Will Mebane
And if I'm wrong about that, please correct me. But I wonder, isn't it more than blind spots? Is it? Is it intentional? Aren't there people who know precisely what they are doing, in terms of using politics to promote racist agendas? Again, I go back to, you know, critical race theory or the abortion debate or gerrymandering.

00;33;04;13 - 00;33;11;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Those are blind spots. People know exactly what they're doing. And or am I wrong about that?

00;33;11;02 - 00;33;46;26
Samuel Gebru
Yeah. No. Reverend, you're correct. You know, perhaps I was being too nice. Kind of, but, you know, I think so. So, yeah, there are two types, right? In my opinion, one is you're sort of more overt, you know, politician or, political activist or whatever, who who is intentional early, engaging in policy violence, who is intentionally engaging, in, in, in fearmongering and divisiveness in, in decision making that is meant to harm, black and brown folks.

00;33;46;29 - 00;34;16;24
Samuel Gebru
And then you have, you know, you're sort of more well-meaning, the type of politician who, you know, may want to do the right thing or thinks that they're doing the right thing. But, you know, I'll give you an example. So, so last year, one of the things that I ended up working heavily on was, the, the Senate bill, to, finance the, redevelopment of the Holyoke Soldiers Home.

00;34;16;26 - 00;34;44;07
Samuel Gebru
So, as you may know, you know, through the pandemic, the soldiers home in Holyoke, Massachusetts, was essentially condemned. It was the site of, mass deaths of veterans, and, a huge scandal that that is still, persisting, today. And ultimately, the Commonwealth made the decision to, demolish the soldiers home and, build a new one.

00;34;44;10 - 00;35;19;10
Samuel Gebru
And, in it, there was, a, in the legislation, that was forwarded from the House to the Senate. There was an amendment for a project labor agreement, which is, basically, a document, that outlines, different protections, for construction workers. But in it, you know, there's certain requirements, for instance, that, the workers used on such project, would have to all be from, a trade union, which, you know, in and of itself is a great thing.

00;35;19;10 - 00;36;05;19
Samuel Gebru
And I'm a pro, union pro-labor person. But then you look underneath and you realize that the majority of black and brown construction firms, and construction workers are not associated with a union. And it's not, by refusing to join one, but rather, by, organized laborers, long standing practice of exclusion. And, then you start to run into some issues where sort of the well-meaning politicians who want to be pro-union and pro-worker, and think it's a good thing to have a project labor agreement, start to, run against, exclusion and, and, and, and, practices that, that have, meant to,

00;36;05;21 - 00;36;34;15
Samuel Gebru
keep black and brown folks out of, the unions. And so, you know, this this became an issue that took over my life last spring, as we tried to navigate through it, and, worked very closely with, legislators, particularly in the Senate, to, come up with, sort of a compromise language that, that really focused on, accountability, opportunity, accessibility and inclusion, for, people of color in the trades.

00;36;34;17 - 00;37;05;08
Samuel Gebru
Because it's not enough to say that this project needs to be 100% union. And then, oh, by the way, we have no people of color in union, or we have no, construction firms that are owned by people of color. And so, you know, when you look at a $100 billion project and you realize that less than 1% of it went to, a minority firm, then, you know, we have problems and we see this story time and time again here in Massachusetts, where, you know, people think that they're doing the right thing.

00;37;05;11 - 00;37;43;25
Samuel Gebru
And then you actually look at the numbers and you look at the, you know, the opportunities that are created, and then you realize that nothing was actually created and that's sort of running into issues. So, I think, you know, to your point. Absolutely. There are politicians and, you know, one thing that we're seeing now, more and more of, to the critical race theory to point, you know, people are using local government, particularly school committees, town, select boards, city councils, to, to wreak havoc, essentially, because they know, that local government is the most direct form of government.

00;37;43;28 - 00;38;03;11
Samuel Gebru
It's the one that has the most impact on your life. And this is actually a strategy that, you know, a lot of, sort of more conservative groups have used for years where, they, they, you know, sort of work on building a bench, you know, you you have people that run for, more junior level, positions.

00;38;03;11 - 00;38;37;10
Samuel Gebru
They run, they get elected. And they sort of build, their, their resume is, and then in, you know, ten, 15 years, they become United States senator, or a judge or whatever. And so, you know, this sort of intentionality of, recruiting people of, of, supporting them, providing them with the tools to, to to succeed in politics, is something that, conservative groups have gotten down to science and, it's actually, pretty incredible to see how effective they are.

00;38;37;13 - 00;38;56;28
Samuel Gebru
And, how there isn't much on the other side when it comes to, you know, getting people of color. I mean, you know, there's actually been enormous growth in getting women, to to run for office and to win, you have phenomenal groups like Emily's list and others that have really done, tremendous work.

00;38;57;01 - 00;39;31;19
Samuel Gebru
And we've seen, even since the election of Donald Trump, just the proliferation of women that have, stood up and said, you know what? I'm running for something. And that's incredible. And we need more of that. And so, you know, what we're sort of lacking now is just, that that, crossover between, you know, women and people of color, particularly black women that, that, you know, that need the support, to be running for office and then also black men and, and, and and, and ensuring that they have the, support that they need to run for office.

00;39;31;19 - 00;39;55;12
Samuel Gebru
So, I, I hear what you're saying for sure. You know, we have politicians that are deliberately engaged in and policy violence, that are deliberately engaging in practices and policies that are meant to exclude, and keep black and brown folks poor. And disadvantaged, and excluded from, wealth building, and, and opportunities to, for social mobility.

00;39;55;14 - 00;40;15;13
Samuel Gebru
But then we also have, you know, again, sort of your more well intentioned politician that, thinks that they're doing the right thing. But again, just, you know, using the project labor agreement, example of. Yeah, probably labor, sounds good. But then when, you know, when you look underneath, you're like, oh, well, hey, look again, you've excluded, large swaths of people.

00;40;15;13 - 00;40;47;21
Samuel Gebru
So while you are pro-labor, you're actually also pro exclusion. So, and that's a tough pill to swallow, particularly in a pro, union state like Massachusetts. But I think, this is something, Steven Wright has lived, that said this, well, is, you know, you know, the sometimes it's just, you know, I have found personally success, in and really sitting down with people and helping them understand, sort of where their ideas may be wrong, as opposed to shouting at you.

00;40;47;23 - 00;41;13;16
Samuel Gebru
I think there's a time and place where you have to step up, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but, Martin Luther King Jr, was the one who said that, right is the language of the, oppressed. And so, sometimes you do have to step up and, make some noise. And sometimes you have to sort of call people in and, and build, consensus and have those sort of conversations that lead to, to growth.

00;41;13;16 - 00;41;21;02
Samuel Gebru
So, there's no silver bullet. But for sure, you know, I found, success in both.

00;41;21;04 - 00;41;43;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Oh, man, you've given me so much. I promise I'm not going to dominate the rest of the conversation here. I, first of all, you've given us a great idea for a future show. I often wanted to talk about something. Very few shows talk about that. That is racism in unions. People do want to talk about that.

00;41;43;11 - 00;42;23;23
Rev. Will Mebane
And so I did, stay close to your email because we're going to do a show about that. If I can get my co-producers to agree, with, and yeah, you're absolutely right. Even we're talking about the, you mentioned, the Trump administration. And immediately what came to mind was the overt racism, the targeting, the movement, the people of the Muslim faith, of Islam and, the bans, right on allowing people from predominantly Muslim countries to come in.

00;42;23;23 - 00;42;59;22
Rev. Will Mebane
I mean, that's just that's just, again, that's not a blind spot. It's just kind of overt racism. And we did a show about racism in immigration. And, I think we're seeing it right now, we're seeing it right now. We have thousands of people at our southern border who are petitioning, trying to get into this country, for refuge and to flee the, terror that occupies their lives in Honduras and Colombia and Venezuela and Mexico and other places in the Southern Hemisphere.

00;42;59;24 - 00;43;27;16
Rev. Will Mebane
And both the Biden administration and the Trump administration have been so resistant to, allowing for a flow of of individuals from those communities, those countries, into our country. And yet, when, the war in Ukraine takes place, the whole world says, oh, yeah, we gotta let Ukrainians in. I mean, the Europeans did the same thing with when the Syrians were trying to flee the terror.

00;43;27;19 - 00;43;47;06
Rev. Will Mebane
In their country. And they went to Europe, and the Europeans closed the door on them and wouldn't let them across to cross borders and what have you. But now everybody wants to let the Ukrainians, and they should, I mean, quit before my Ukrainian friends come after me. Yeah. We should be admitting Ukrainians as refugees in this country.

00;43;47;09 - 00;44;16;05
Rev. Will Mebane
But we can do both. There's enough land in this country. There's enough opportunity in this country for us to do both. People in need of refugees from the Southern hemisphere, people in need of of of refugees from, Baltic areas like like Ukraine. So, again, there's so much more. I appreciate your response to that. And before I forget it, I'm I ran for the school committee, which called the school board in, in Connecticut, and I got elected.

00;44;16;05 - 00;44;43;22
Rev. Will Mebane
And then my parents, chose me to be the chair of the school board, and, boy, I am going to be chairing you and, praying for you and hoping that all goes well for you. But more importantly, if you are elected to offer, my, my council to you if, that's something you might find, might be helpful to you.

00;44;43;24 - 00;44;44;24
Rev. Will Mebane
So.

00;44;44;26 - 00;44;49;08
Shea Brown-Kirlew
Okay. Thank you.

00;44;49;10 - 00;44;51;18
Onjalé Scott Price
You got anything? You got more, Rev?

00;44;51;20 - 00;44;59;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh, I got I was taking notes on everything you were saying. I got so much more, but I believe I'm gonna leave it there for now, because we probably should go. Go to the second question.

00;44;59;17 - 00;45;17;14
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, yeah, this has been great. We are going to go to our second question. So we will go to our people on the street to answer to answer the question, how do we keep racism out of politics? So let's go hear what they have to say.

00;45;17;16 - 00;45;38;01
Megan English Braga
I think that, you know, we have two ways that we have to attack it. You know, the first is that we have to call it out, and it really is incumbent upon, white folks to do that. People of color, Bipoc, you know, members of our community or elected officials, or members of our committees, can't be carrying that weight.

00;45;38;03 - 00;46;07;08
Megan English Braga
White folks need to do that work. And so in the instance that I just used, when we hear individuals using coded language or, you know, really, you know, euphemisms that we know what the, what they're really talking about. We know that that's race based, in terms of their objections to projects or initiatives. We need to call that out, and we need to point, to what it is, and we need to, educate.

00;46;07;12 - 00;46;51;10
Megan English Braga
We need to unpack it. And we need to push back against it. And that is the job of, folks in our community, to make sure that we are constantly vigilant for that. And then the other way is representation. We have to have more voices engaged in decision making. You know, politics, no matter how good the intentions are of the folks that come to the table, if everyone at the table comes from a similar life experience, you're not going to get, you know, a well-rounded decision at the end of the day, you need people that come from, really a diverse background, you know, that bring to that,

00;46;51;12 - 00;46;56;06
Megan English Braga
decision making a variety of lived experiences.

00;46;56;09 - 00;46;57;00
Stephen Tom
I think that.

00;46;57;08 - 00;47;17;27
Stephen Tom
Getting racism out of politics, if we accept the challenge is a multi generational thing. I think that because it is so pervasive, we have to educate ourselves. We have to, become activists and be willing to speak out in constructive ways.

00;47;17;27 - 00;47;19;22
Stephen Tom
And I emphasize.

00;47;19;24 - 00;47;44;18
Stephen Tom
The constructive aspect of it. To be angry may be justified, but, personally, to be angry is generally not, not very productive. I think that, the few times where I felt that I had to speak up and some sort of a confrontational, situation, they were few and far.

00;47;44;18 - 00;47;46;20
Stephen Tom
Between and.

00;47;46;22 - 00;48;02;15
Stephen Tom
I'd like to think that I've contributed more to, my friendships and society, around me, by being firm in my resolve, but taking actions that are constructive. So I would I would.

00;48;02;15 - 00;48;03;14
Stephen Tom
Say that.

00;48;03;17 - 00;48;05;16
Stephen Tom
The, the way we get.

00;48;05;16 - 00;48;07;12
Stephen Tom
Races, out of politics is we.

00;48;07;12 - 00;48;22;29
Stephen Tom
Get more, more people of, varying ethnicities involved in our political system, whether it's at the, at the local level, the state level, the national level, we have to be active.

00;48;23;04 - 00;48;46;08
Megan English Braga
I know folks like to think that we are, you know, we don't have a lot of diversity. And certainly we are not like a large, urban environment where, where there's greater diversity, but there is diversity in the town of Falmouth, and we don't call upon it enough. And, and really, celebrate and draw upon that richness to make sure that the decision makers in the room represent our community.

00;48;46;08 - 00;49;14;07
Megan English Braga
So the the greater the range of voices at the table, the better the decision is going to be. And ultimately you're going to undercut, you know, that racism, if there are more people in the conversation and are being equally heard, and equally respected when, when those decisions are being made. So we've just heard from our people on the street answering the question, how do we keep racism out of politics?

00;49;14;09 - 00;49;35;20
Onjalé Scott Price
And I have to say, I really loved what Megan had to say, and she said that it can't be on the backs of our Bipoc community members to do the work that the white folks have to do the work to. And in that moment, I thought to myself, I am really going to miss her on the Selectboard. She is not running again, and she has been a tremendous ally on the board because she has done exactly that.

00;49;35;20 - 00;49;55;04
Onjalé Scott Price
There have been times where people have used that coded language at our meetings to talk about when they say othering or those people, as she mentioned in the first question, specifically about housing. But it's come up in other spaces, and I'm just thankful that I don't always have to be the one to call that out. But we have to call it out.

00;49;55;04 - 00;50;09;20
Onjalé Scott Price
We have to say something if we want it to change. We can't just sit idly by and pretend that everything's okay, because that's how we perpetuate, as Sam, as you called it. What is it? Politic racism. Politic violence is what? What you.

00;50;09;20 - 00;50;10;17
Samuel Gebru
Policy violence.

00;50;10;18 - 00;50;54;15
Onjalé Scott Price
Policy violence? I have not heard that before, but I think that's a really good way of putting that, because it is a form of violence. Like I was mentioning earlier about, you know, women's health and maternal health and, and, the abortion issue that's on the table again. But also thinking about housing and redlining and how the redlining not only caused black and brown people to lose out on generations of potential wealth by owning homes in neighborhoods that increased in value, but also that black people were put into neighborhoods that were closer to factories, and there are still sustained and systemic health concerns and issues that people have because of where they were

00;50;54;15 - 00;51;21;20
Onjalé Scott Price
forced to live. So I think that policy violences is a perfect name for what it is. So I have I have said how much I appreciate Megan and her challenging our our white community members to be the ones to speak up. And I hope that that people will feel empowered through these conversations and through gaining of knowledge to be the ones to speak up.

00;51;21;22 - 00;51;47;16
Onjalé Scott Price
Steve mentioned, I believe it is in the first question how or maybe it was the second question, how he can recall speaking up, and it's few and far between, but that it was in those moments that he felt like he had to do it. And so I hope that we have community members who feel empowered to stand up in those moments where they feel like it needs to be done and not wait on the black and brown people to to do it, or to feel like they get permission to do it.

00;51;47;16 - 00;52;06;21
Onjalé Scott Price
That's something else that I've, I've kind of heard is that there's a concern sometimes with white people that they don't want to be the ones to speak up because they don't want to seem like they know everything or be the white savior. And I'll tell you, when it comes to those board meetings and those school committee meetings and that coded language comes up, I don't want to be the one.

00;52;06;24 - 00;52;24;03
Onjalé Scott Price
I don't want to be the one, the only person of color on that board, or one of few people of color to be the ones to stand up against that coded language. And that racism. And so we really do need our our white colleagues and our white community members to be, as Rob likes to say, accomplices and not just allies.

00;52;24;05 - 00;52;30;12
Onjalé Scott Price
So I'd like to, to ask Samuel, how do we keep racism out of politics?

00;52;30;14 - 00;53;01;16
Samuel Gebru
Yeah. You know, just on the point of policy balance for a second. It's it's a term, that, you know, is being popularized nowadays. You have, a number of groups that are using it prominently. The Poor People's Campaign and, others that are, that are beginning to uplift, the term precisely to the point that you mentioned, you know, these these decisions, these policy decisions have island life or death impacts, you know, whether it's environmental health or crime or, you know, the next thing.

00;53;01;16 - 00;53;31;01
Samuel Gebru
So, you know, it's not, it's not just a theoretical, exchange of ideas. Policy has consequences. In terms of, you know, how to sort of root out, racism in politics, you know, so two things. One, yes. We need people in privilege to step up any sort of privilege, you know, racial privilege, gender privilege, sexuality privilege.

00;53;31;03 - 00;53;52;27
Samuel Gebru
You know, language privilege. You know, economic privilege, educational privilege. I mean, it can go you can go down the list, right? So any anyone who has any inch of privilege, should be leveraging their, their, you know, there's nothing inherently wrong with privilege. And I opinion it's really what you do with it or what you don't do with it.

00;53;52;27 - 00;54;10;10
Samuel Gebru
That's the issue. Like with your social capital, your financial capital, your intellectual capital, you know, you can accumulate all the capital you want in the world. But the question is, what are you doing with it? You know, the the, the, the ancient Egyptian of pharaohs, used to think that you would die with all your wealth.

00;54;10;12 - 00;54;19;25
Samuel Gebru
And, they were wrong, you know, you don't die with your wealth. You know, we have a reverend on the call, so I'm not going to. I'm not going to tell you, but,

00;54;19;27 - 00;54;24;00
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm going to send the money to the church. That's what they do. Send your money to the church.

00;54;24;02 - 00;54;28;06
Samuel Gebru
Money to the church. Send it to you know, you send it to your house of worship.

00;54;28;11 - 00;54;28;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Feed the.

00;54;28;24 - 00;54;46;26
Samuel Gebru
Poor, feed the hungry, you know, house the needy. Like, you know, that's what you got to do. And, at the end of the day, you know, that's that's really what your legacy will be, right? It's not about, you know, how much, money did you accumulate or how many credentials did you accrue?

00;54;46;28 - 00;55;14;26
Samuel Gebru
And so, you know, it's for the people that are in privilege, campuses. Yes. I like to use the term coconspirator. That's what we need. You know, we need, you know, more white people to step up, and I understand, know there's there's a real, inherent concern of the white savior complex. But but but we do need white, people to really stand shoulder to shoulder in the fight for for racial justice and and equity.

00;55;14;28 - 00;55;42;03
Samuel Gebru
Same as we need men to step up and and fight, for, for, gender equality and women's health and women's rights and all sorts of other issues. And so, you know, but what really excites me, and, and, and I'll stop here is, you know, the United States Census Bureau, says that by 2050, this country will be, majority people of color.

00;55;42;05 - 00;56;16;21
Samuel Gebru
And so, the new majority, right? The new American majority, is what excites me. And it excites me for the same reason why it freaks out certain people. Because, the the tables will have really turned, in terms of, the the vastness of people of color in this country, you know, you look around, particularly throughout the South, throughout the, the southwest, you know, in many communities, if you don't speak Spanish frankly, you know, you're not really moving on.

00;56;16;23 - 00;56;48;21
Samuel Gebru
You know, there are many communities, that that will prioritize Spanish speakers, you know, whether it's hospitals or schools or, or courts or, you know, police departments or whatever, just because of the growth and even here in, in Massachusetts, the growth of people of color, and so the new American majority, is is exciting me because, you know, as I honor Pressley and so many others say it's not enough, just to, you know, bring, chairs to an existing table.

00;56;48;21 - 00;57;14;29
Samuel Gebru
You really have to assemble your own, table. You can't keep using the systems and the tools of the past, you know, because those are the tools that got us to the problems that we're, that we're at, today. We need new systems. We need new tools. We need new approaches and new procedures. And that requires some sort of, radical, reimagining, retooling of how we do things.

00;57;15;01 - 00;57;35;18
Samuel Gebru
And so, you know, we're going to need a new table, and, that table is going to have a bunch of new chairs, and it's going to look like a very vastly different country. I think, you know, the Founding Fathers, if they were alive today, would we would be scared. You know, I think they would all have freaked out just by the diversity of of our decision makers.

00;57;35;21 - 00;58;04;03
Samuel Gebru
Today, you know, that we have, a black woman on the Supreme Court of the United States. That's scary for some people. And and you shouldn't be scared. And so, you know, I think that's what really excites me is that we just have a completely different, Cohort of people, that are stepping up, whether they're running for things or, they're leading companies or they're, you know, in any sort of decision making capacity.

00;58;04;08 - 00;58;37;25
Samuel Gebru
And that new American majority, is, is going to help, create a more, just, more equitable, country, that, that is fair and that's inclusive for everyone. And at the end of the day, that is racial justice, you know, making sure, that those who have been, historically, systemically excluded are called in, are brought in, to the decision making table, and are given, the ability to, to help determine, their future.

00;58;37;25 - 00;59;11;19
Samuel Gebru
And I can't think of anything more American, than that. I mean, you know, this this is a country that was, you know, founded on, many ideals and many practices, some good, some bad. But but the principle of self-determination, is as American as it gets. And allowing people, to be part of their decision making, allowing people, to be, to be part of, charting their own future and one that is, free and fair and equitable, is something that we should be aspiring to as a country.

00;59;11;22 - 00;59;18;12
Samuel Gebru
So the new American majority, excites me because I know that it's going to be one that works for everyone.

00;59;18;15 - 00;59;37;24
Onjalé Scott Price
That was beautifully said. I'm also excited about the future, and I know that the the people who are who are scared about it are the ones who would uphold these same structures that have kept us where we are. And that's why it's so important for us to get involved at every level, at the school level, the town level, and all the way up.

00;59;37;27 - 01;00;13;21
Onjalé Scott Price
As you mentioned, the the you mentioned it a while ago. Conservative groups have gotten really good at that because they've recognized the power that can be held and wielded and not shared, at every level. And so they've figured out ways to hold on to that power. And I think that's something that whatever you would call the after the liberals or just different groups of people should also be looking at and recognize, not just looking at doing it, but recognizing the importance of these local groups and local elected officials like the Selectboard and like the school committee.

01;00;13;24 - 01;00;32;20
Onjalé Scott Price
And when you were talking about, policing specifically and that representation, I noticed, Reverend, will you your eyes kind of kind of got big. I'm curious if you want to if you want to make a comment on that. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I am.

01;00;32;22 - 01;01;03;10
Rev. Will Mebane
It wouldn't be the first time, that you. Well, But let me first I'll say a couple things. One, Samuel is absolutely right about how. And you and you, we're talking about how, conservatives in particular have, have a playbook that has been, used now for, several years. This this didn't just happen overnight, but for several years.

01;01;03;12 - 01;01;36;11
Rev. Will Mebane
And the Koch brothers, were, specifically, good at funding efforts, to take over, school boards, school committees and to, begin to have an effect on the policies on the local level and then to groom those individuals to then go on to state legislative positions and then on to federal government positions. So, yeah, the playbooks out there, and they've been using it for, for some time.

01;01;36;11 - 01;02;11;27
Rev. Will Mebane
And, you know, I. Well, the other thing I know, we're we're getting close to the end of time. And I there are a couple of other things I want to share. What one, you know, I love Stephen. Tom, he he's, he's a friend. And and I have great respect for him. And he's right that, and we've got to have in order to erase, racism in politics, we've got to have more, folks who are activists, like, like he is, and we need, like Megan was saying, we need some white folks to be activists or coconspirators.

01;02;11;27 - 01;02;56;14
Rev. Will Mebane
I like that term as well, Samuel. And not just on the sidelines as allies cheering, but in the struggle in the in the midst of the battle. But I disagree with Stephen about, the issue of anger and and Samuel, you raised this as well. You know. No, we need some righteous anger. You know, when I think about how, racists, even today, how they treat, Rashida Tlaib or, AOC, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or, Ayanna Pressley and and how disrespectful they are of these, these women holding these, elected positions.

01;02;56;16 - 01;03;18;16
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, we should be angry about that and we should speak to that. You know, we can't just let that that go by. But, the oppressor is always trying to keep the person that's oppressed from being angry, you know? Oh, I'm going to step on you. I'm gonna put my knee on your neck. And I'm going to hold it there for nine minutes and 30s.

01;03;18;18 - 01;03;41;05
Rev. Will Mebane
But you know, you don't have a right to be angry about that. Why the hell not? That I better be angry about that. Whole bunch of people need to be angry about that. So that's the only the only area where I sort of, I disagree, sort of disagree. I disagree with what Steven was saying. So we need to have some, some, some righteous anger.

01;03;41;08 - 01;04;13;06
Rev. Will Mebane
And you've mentioned several times, Samuel will be the need to focus on environmental justice. And yes, that is where another place where racist politicians have used racist policy to, harm black and brown people in this country. We ought to be angry about that, and we ought to take steps to to change that. And then on the the criminal injustice system that we have here in this country.

01;04;13;06 - 01;04;36;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. That is a place where there's a need for drastic, radical reformation. We can get into this whole debate about defunding, and I've never I never liked that language. I'll just be honest. And that would like the language of defund the police. I think that was, a misstep by by the activists that were promoting the philosophy.

01;04;36;18 - 01;05;07;13
Rev. Will Mebane
I, I agree with the philosophy behind it, that we shouldn't be shoveling millions and millions and billions of dollars into, you know, these military forces that are masquerading as local police departments. And then having them terrorize black and brown communities? No, I, I am I am not in favor of doing that. So, I don't know if I answered your question, I you, but that's.

01;05;07;15 - 01;05;08;29
Rev. Will Mebane
My my.

01;05;09;02 - 01;05;30;09
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. You did. I like to to ask Shay to tell us what's on her mind. What are you thinking about? About how we keep racism out of politics. How do we keep racism out of, the work that is done by local elected boards like the Select Board and and like the school committee. What are your thoughts on that?

01;05;30;12 - 01;05;33;18
Onjalé Scott Price
You're muted.

01;05;33;21 - 01;05;35;15
Shea Brown-Kirlew
Oh, that's a tricky.

01;05;37;18 - 01;06;13;12
Shea Brown-Kirlew
Okay. Sometime it kind of seems hard. How to keep it out because of some of the mentality of people. So with what I think, I just think we just have to work together, and it is we have to put in some hard work. To get it out. Yeah, absolutely. I think you make a really good point that it, it's people's mentalities that we really have to change.

01;06;13;13 - 01;06;37;25
Shea Brown-Kirlew
It has to be a mindset shift and doing things differently. People who watch the show or know me know I'm a really big, supporter of affordable housing. And we've we've really been talking about just the term affordable and how that triggers something in people. And if we want people to have a mindset shift of of what that means, we have to we we have to change their mentality.

01;06;37;25 - 01;06;59;16
Onjalé Scott Price
We have to get them to have that mindset shift. We can't simply just say, well, no, that's not what we mean when we say affordable housing. That's not going to work. We have to actually change people's mindset. And I think we have to do the same thing with politics when we have to have these conversation that really draw out the ways that reason manifests itself in politics and, this policy violence.

01;06;59;16 - 01;07;19;12
Onjalé Scott Price
And then we also have to spend time changing people's mentality. And, and, and I don't mean that in a way of we need to push our views on other people. We just need to educate people, and we need to inform them and show them. I, I can't imagine that anyone would read The Color of Law, which is a very good book.

01;07;19;14 - 01;07;40;14
Onjalé Scott Price
I can't imagine anybody would read that and then not believe that these racist, these policies were intentionally racist, that they were not intentionally racist. There's no way you could read that book with all of the facts and the information. And that's the kind of thing that we need to do, is we need to inform people on how these policies do indeed enact violence, whether immediately or long term.

01;07;40;22 - 01;07;59;14
Onjalé Scott Price
And I think that's why it's so wonderful, the work that you're doing, Samuel, where you're looking at policies in real time to be able to say, this is what this policy says it's going to do. And here's the deeper dive, and here's the information that you need to know about this policy. And I think that kind of work, I hope we we see that on a larger scale.

01;07;59;14 - 01;08;30;03
Onjalé Scott Price
It's wonderful that you're you're doing that. And I hope that we're able to do that, you know, on a much larger scale, but then also at a much, much more local scale on the Selectboard, our job is to create and edit policies that affect the people in the town of Falmouth. And there's five of us on this board, and we have a little bit of diversity now, but but still, I know that there are times that we are not seeing, a good representation of all the people who these policies are going to affect.

01;08;30;03 - 01;08;49;00
Onjalé Scott Price
And we can ask people to to come to our board meetings and to give us ideas. But, you know, people have lives and they have things that they need to do. And so to have a a way for us to really look at these policies and how they're implemented and then also have a mechanism to go back and edit policies.

01;08;49;00 - 01;09;10;25
Onjalé Scott Price
Once we recognize that they are problematic or they are, they're not doing what they were intended to do. I think that would really go a long way in keeping racism out of our politics. So I want to thank you all for participating in this amazing conversation about racism in politics. Thank you for the work that you're doing, Samuel.

01;09;10;25 - 01;09;34;16
Onjalé Scott Price
Thank you, Shay, for stepping up and running for the school board. And in our community, we really need the representation. We need the voices. And thank you, Rev, for always being wonderful and awesome to talk to. Thank you to Deb and Allen at Sctv for helping us put this show together, doing all of the really great behind the scenes work to actually make this a show.

01;09;34;16 - 01;09;41;18
Onjalé Scott Price
You are appreciated. And until next time, thank you for joining us on the Conversation.