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Rev. Will Mebane

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Rev. Will Mebane
Welcome to the conversation. We're glad you've taken the time to join us. We have a very timely show topic for this episode of The Conversation. We're going to be talking about tourism. This is the height of the tourism season here on the Cape and the Islands. But we're going to be looking at, racism in tourism. I don't know if that's something you've ever considered.

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Rev. Will Mebane
It wasn't for me. Perhaps my co-hosts, the Honorable Angela Scott Price, has done some thinking about racism in tourism. But good to see you, Angela.

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Onjalé Scott Price
It's good to be seen.

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Rev. Will Mebane
So we have a terrific panel that's going to be, participating in the conversation with us today. And, we have some folks, that we call on the street who are also going to be offering some comments about where do we find racism in tourism if we do. And if we do, then what can we do about eradicating racism?

00;01;47;27 - 00;02;16;29
Rev. Will Mebane
That's always, always what we try to do here on the conversation to raise an issue and then try to figure out some steps that can be taken and taken to resolve the problem. Right. So let's take a listen to what some of our people on the street have to say, and we'll be back with you in a moment with our in-studio panel.

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Jerry Lassos
I find racism in, a couple of areas. But there seems to be a kind of a common theme, and it relates to, employees. And I refer to them as invisible employees.

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Erik Albert
I mean, you can find in a lot of places you can find it, for instance, a lot of times the staff might be people of color. And there's a disconnect. Maybe between the staff and the the guest. And you could also see it, I would imagine with some places where people don't feel as comfortable as they could be, there might be some supervisor, but some of the employees to people like on vacation.

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Olivia Masih White
First thing I noticed was that there were no tourist owned hotel or motel by minority. I did not see any businesses that were owned by minority, or people or people of diverse backgrounds like bookstore, restaurant and I've also seen that all of the tour groups were mostly white.

00;03;39;16 - 00;04;19;07
Rev. Will Mebane
Well welcome back. Those are some interesting comments from our people on the street, and I'm eager to hear what our in-studio guests have to say in response to what they just heard and you just heard. And also asked them to weigh in on this question about tourism and specifically where you find racism in the tourist industry. We are fortunate to have, two, very prominent individuals with us as our in-studio guests today, and we may be joined by a third as the show progresses.

00;04;19;09 - 00;04;43;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Michael Kasper Aryan is very well known to folks in Falmouth. He's he's not a, a face that is unfamiliar to folks. Michael is, president and CEO of the Falmouth Chamber of Commerce. And I'll say a little bit more about your background, Michael, as we move into the questions and also with us is India rose, India, and was raised on the island.

00;04;43;28 - 00;05;26;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Has they referred to it? I think, specifically Martha's Vineyard and is very active in promoting businesses and empowering women in particular, in the work that she does on the island and elsewhere. So welcome to you both. So, Mike, I'm going to start with you, and this whole question of tourism being the CEO of, an organization that is about promoting businesses and, and what have you, what's your reaction to what you heard, our people on the street say, or your initial thoughts on this whole subject about racism in tourism?

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Michael Kasparian
Well, I think it's interesting. Well, this there's two ways of looking at it. One is people working within the tourism industry. And then, of course, people who are participating in tourism as, as tourists. And I'm really thrilled that India is on the program, because I think there's a very different experience on Martha's Vineyard than there is here in Falmouth, particularly from the tourism perspective.

00;05;45;14 - 00;06;14;08
Michael Kasparian
You know, frequenting of Oak Bluffs myself quite frequently. There is much more of, racial diversity there and a mix of people. I think people probably feel more comfortable or more welcome. There's more of a history, you know, in Falmouth from the from the perspective that we have running the visitor center, I can tell you that, of the thousands of people literally that coming to the visitor center every year, it's a very, very small percentage of people who come in as tourists or people of color.

00;06;14;10 - 00;06;38;05
Michael Kasparian
So people who are visiting our town, operate predominantly white. The majority of them are from the New England area. But I think the case is also a little bit different. I agreed with some of the, I agree with the observations that were made when it comes to the perspective of people who are working within the tourism industry, behind the doors, behind the scenes.

00;06;38;07 - 00;07;04;25
Michael Kasparian
And I think that's, that's evident, in, in several of the, accommodations industries, industry in particular, you know, and and it's not always it's it's an observation. So not necessarily from a negative perspective, from a, from one positive perspective. I mean, if you take a, an example from the late, great, Bill Sam or William Zimmer, who operated many restaurants, as you know, you know.

00;07;04;25 - 00;07;35;13
Michael Kasparian
Well and, and, over the flying bridge where the majority of the staff are folks who are from Jamaica or people of color. I know that they've been, endeared my daughter who works there and, they have adopted her, into the family. But when you do go and you see that, you know, the majority of the folks that are working there, I, you know, our people of color, it does kind of set into tone that, that's really how the table is set.

00;07;35;13 - 00;07;56;26
Michael Kasparian
And the question really becomes, you know, what do we do as a, as a community? To try to, you know, include more people who are actually on the other side of the dining table that is sitting there coming to visit our town. And, and it's a it's a hard question. It's a question that the entire community has to get in into.

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Michael Kasparian
You know, I do look across at OB, and they've done a great, much more of a great job there. I think it's just much more, you have more property owners and, and we'll talk about that. I think, you know, you know, I do have some ideas of how, you know, real estate and property have a lot to do with, with, what's going on?

00;08;17;07 - 00;08;20;03
Michael Kasparian
But I think some of those comments are really right on track.

00;08;20;05 - 00;08;25;25
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, I was I have to this is going to be true confession time for you. You can have a priest confessing.

00;08;25;25 - 00;08;26;28
Michael Kasparian
We know this.

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Jerry Lassos

00;08;28;26 - 00;08;48;28
Rev. Will Mebane
But, you know, you're right about the, the lack of diversity among, the visitors to to family and, two things. One, we live right on Main Street, right at the village Green. And so, when we see my wife and I, when we see black folks walking down the street, we, like, there are black people walking down the street.

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Jerry Lassos

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Rev. Will Mebane
And one of us will go, or both of us go running out to the street. I just did that Saturday night. It was a couple.

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Michael Kasparian
Going by.

00;08;56;11 - 00;09;05;10
Rev. Will Mebane
And, I still had my, Saturday evening spirits that help me get the spirit one Sunday in my hand and, went out.

00;09;05;10 - 00;09;07;02
Michael Kasparian
And.

00;09;07;04 - 00;09;31;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Met this couple. So you're right that that that lack of that diversity. And also I wanted to share regarding the flying bridge when we first moved here. We were looking for where are the people of color, where the black and brown folks. Right. And we didn't know about the fly bridge, but we ended up going and we walked in and we saw all these black people, and we're like.

00;09;32;01 - 00;09;33;17
Jerry Lassos

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Rev. Will Mebane
Where are they from? Where? What's going on here? And over time, you know, I got to meet Bill. May he rest in peace. And, I know what he does to bring in, staff from the, from Jamaica. So, that and so we're now fans of the Flying Bridge, and I and I haven't forgotten. I know I promised to take Andre and you to the flying bridge.

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Michael Kasparian
You going to go to.

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Jerry Lassos

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Rev. Will Mebane
Would I do that?

00;10;01;12 - 00;10;28;20
Michael Kasparian
Well, you know, we'll what's, what's really interesting there is when you go and with pride, the Jamaican flag is flying there. I don't know if you've ever noticed that. Yeah, yeah. In addition to so, you know, it's it's such example of how things can really be how we can have not, you know, diversity obviously, but equilibrium is a word I like to use or throughout our community.

00;10;28;23 - 00;10;56;13
Rev. Will Mebane
So India, I'm going to I'm going to come to you. India is CEO and founder of side sideline line Brand, a motivational sportswear and streetwear store on Martha's Vineyard. As I said earlier, she's very involved in helping to, helping women to realize the power they have. I'm one that doesn't like to use the term empower people, because I believe people already empowered.

00;10;56;15 - 00;11;24;03
Rev. Will Mebane
And but we have to do it to help them realize the power they already have. But, welcome to India. And Michael is already referred to Obi, you know, on, the vineyard. And if someone lives there in a place that, is certainly a definite, hotspot for tourism, give us your, your initial thoughts on this whole question of, racism in tourism.

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India Rose
Definitely. So there I feel like there's so many layers. There's so many layers to this. My initial thoughts after hearing the feedback, some everybody was that the focus was really sort of on that, you know, the tourism versus the staff.

00;11;42;07 - 00;11;43;01
Jerry Lassos

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India Rose
And Michael alluded a little bit to that. But I think that really comes down to sort of a company culture type thing. To start so that you're creating an environment in a business environment in a hotel and a retail store, you are doing that with your staff. And I think that that really starts with the ownership in the management and the higher ups, the type of culture that you're creating, for tourism.

00;12;13;24 - 00;12;42;06
India Rose
So that really is at the top if you're not treating your staff or your managers, you know, with the decency and the kindness, that they should receive, that's a total trickle down effect that goes into the culture, that particular business and tourists feed off of that. They know based on, you know, wherever they're walking into, based on how something is marketed.

00;12;42;09 - 00;12;59;28
India Rose
Whether or not it's something that is drawn to them and with the vineyard because, you know, Michael alluded to, you know, Oak Bluffs because of the historical aspect, black folk on the islands, that there is and I'm sorry for the dogs.

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Rev. Will Mebane
That's okay.

00;13;00;27 - 00;13;40;28
India Rose
No, absolutely. There is, it's going to miss to the history in the culture of that. Right. So that is something that was, you know, that was a safe place for black people to be able to come and to be able to be Keishin one of the things that I do, through my most recent project was I created what's called the Martha's Vineyard Black owned business Directory, and I created that digital platform in 2019 after a lot of people were asking me for black owned resources and services and, and different, you know, landscapers or just anything, chefs on the vineyard.

00;13;41;04 - 00;14;10;17
India Rose
So I would often give referrals, but I felt that there really needed to be a sort of a central spot for that. So after creating that digital platform in 2019, there was a lot of traffic that came, just through 2020 where there was. So, you know, we went through a crazy year, a lot of horrible things that happened last year and the traffic and sort of the keywords of people trying to seek out black owned businesses was enormous.

00;14;10;20 - 00;14;36;00
India Rose
You know, I don't think that everybody knew necessarily where to put all of that energy. So they thought that, you know, in one particular way that they could do that was, you know, being able to, you know, control where their dollars were going. And one of those things was to go ahead and put that into some black owned businesses to try to show support, if they felt helpless, you know, through all of the tumultuous times and everything that, you know, sort of happened last year.

00;14;36;03 - 00;14;58;24
India Rose
And then I saw that people started printing out, I'd run into people in town, and I could see that people were printing out the black owned business directory. So this year, the spring, just right before Memorial Day weekend, I did an actual booklet. So there is now a physical booklet, a guide, just like a dining guide, black owned businesses on Martha's Vineyard.

00;14;58;26 - 00;15;29;21
India Rose
And that has been ridiculously well-received, by people of all colors, down to wanting to include it in wedding gift bags and, you know, having them in their stores, not just in the black owned businesses and really sort of, you know, sharing that and the businesses that come to me, that are not black owned, that want to share that, that want to put that on their counter, that really circles back to what their company culture is like.

00;15;29;23 - 00;16;06;08
India Rose
Right? When you walk in, whether that's something, you know, the inclusive environment, when you walk in the door that that is there as a resource. And they're letting you know that even though it's not a black owned, business, or maybe they don't even have, you know, any employees of color there, but it does say something about, you know, the type of culture that, you know, they're trying to create in their and given, I know that there's, you know, a lot of differences as far as diversity, but the Cape and the islands definitely share, you know, the housing crisis, you know, there's no where to live.

00;16;06;10 - 00;16;27;16
India Rose
And what I do, you also experience, you know, through word of mouth or just through the business consulting work that I do is that there are a lot of owners and corporate people that are holding, you know, the housing over some of their employees and maybe not treating them in the best way. And that's a trickle down.

00;16;27;19 - 00;16;59;23
India Rose
That's a trickle down to the culture. That's a trickle down. But if you can go ahead and you have no problem, you know, treating your staff in a particular manner, you can't expect, you know, people who maybe already have preconceived notions or, or, you know, stereotypes already in their head of, you know, the vineyard or wherever they're traveling, that, you know, you're basically kind of giving them a pass, to be able to treat your staff in that way because you're not getting a handle on that company culture.

00;16;59;25 - 00;17;34;18
India Rose
And, you know, and so, you know, I know the flip side to that, as a tourist, I know that when my husband and I travel to different locations, my my brother lived in Sarasota for a little while and we'd visit Sarasota. It was we were getting followed in all of these different, you know, tourist type of areas. And one of the things that we had to prepare for, because my husband happens to work in law enforcement, was we wanted to make it very clear through our travels, through our 24 hour travels from Massachusetts to Florida was our safety, right?

00;17;34;18 - 00;18;00;15
India Rose
So through our tourism and through, you know, where wherever we're traveling is making sure that, you know, we're safe or if we get pulled over, those are different things that we had to think about for our trip. So being that he was in law enforcement, we made sure that he had, you know, his badge readily available. Make sure that, you know, the association sticker was visible on the family vehicle so that if we got pulled over, somebody would see that right away.

00;18;00;15 - 00;18;25;26
India Rose
Right. And those are different things. As a tourist going into a tourist area that we have to be able to prepare for. So those are just a couple of the layers that, I was immediately thinking after I saw the video where, you know, the, the, the instant thing is between the tourists and the staff, and all of the other layers that really contribute to that.

00;18;25;28 - 00;18;34;23
Rev. Will Mebane
So I've now have dozens of questions that bear with me, and I'm going to positive to and, you know, and, I'm hoping.

00;18;34;24 - 00;18;35;02
Jerry Lassos

00;18;35;02 - 00;19;02;19
Rev. Will Mebane
Might I have a guest that she's going to pick up on that whole discussion about housing and the the impact that has and perpetuating the racism that exists in systems and what have you, here on the Cape and also, there on the island in Martha's Vineyard. But, so two thoughts. One is your brochure. And now that you have, is making me think of the Green book.

00;19;02;26 - 00;19;06;03
India Rose
Yes, yes. That was going. Yes.

00;19;06;06 - 00;19;06;27
Jerry Lassos

00;19;06;29 - 00;19;07;18
India Rose
Yeah, yeah.

00;19;07;21 - 00;19;39;17
Rev. Will Mebane
So that kind of a a different twist on the green book, right. So and then I was going to ask you and you answer that, I believe. What about other, white individuals and white organizations or white businesses? We your booklet is certainly, a resource for people of color who are coming, and we're going to be looking for places that are owned and operated or welcoming to other people of color.

00;19;39;19 - 00;19;57;04
Rev. Will Mebane
So I was curious about how the white owners and operators of a list of establishments, if they had figured out that there was also a benefit, to them from, from the booklet itself, like they're asking for it and they're displaying it. If I heard you.

00;19;57;06 - 00;20;16;26
India Rose
Right, and I think they do see the benefits, prior to the book, you know, or even having the physical booklet, there's a lot of different small businesses, right? So there's very different from, say, you know, sort of the corporate hospitality chains, that do exist here and have a very, very different culture than a lot of the smaller businesses.

00;20;17;02 - 00;20;46;12
India Rose
So you'll see a lot of, you know, different things in the windows where there's a Black Lives Matter sign or, you know, some more, you know, a rainbow flag, some type of things that, you know, show inclusiveness. And, you know, basically just making it very clear that this particular business, you know, welcomes all people. So those are sort of the little symbols that do exist, sort of as you go down Main Street, you'll see some of those in the white owned businesses made in the booklet.

00;20;46;14 - 00;21;12;07
India Rose
One of the things that I also created was a window decal that says, you know, me local. Black owned business. So that's in my store window, all of the black owned businesses that participated. In addition to getting the booklets, they also received the decals as well. So it's one of those things where, you know, in one of the white businesses, you might have, you know, a Black Lives Matter or, you know, or different, you know, symbols.

00;21;12;07 - 00;21;50;09
India Rose
I should have said, hey, we're inclusive, we're allies. Whereas with the black owned businesses now, you can actually go ahead and, you know, for those who have the sticker up in the window, they'll be able to see that. And it does the booklet itself, I mean, in addition to really sort of taking off, it has done amazing things for the small businesses and has really not just, you know, made them a resource depending if they're a service or, but has really people are using this guide, to make the different locations a destination location and it matters it I mean, it really, really matters.

00;21;50;09 - 00;22;12;14
India Rose
And when that happens, there's a sense of community. There's there are conversations that are had, I go into talking about my son about to go off to University of Rhode Island and, and play football, right. As a freshman and, you know, talk about my daughter, you know, who's a dancer. We have conversations about families and and you know, what brought them to the island?

00;22;12;14 - 00;22;32;03
India Rose
And if this their first time here and you know where they should, you know, go eat or what they should do while they're here. So it really creates not just, you know, possible, you know, financial transaction, but also a sense of community and networking. And just, you know, sort of an overall feel that just makes people feel good.

00;22;32;03 - 00;22;57;05
India Rose
You know, one of the things that a lot of tourist locations lack is, you know, the customer service aspect when they are short staffed or you're you know, and again, coming part of sort of that company culture component, you might not be doing the best training to put some bodies, regardless of who they are. You know, with the best information for your business or with the best training to execute your business.

00;22;57;07 - 00;23;31;01
India Rose
And that is all a reflection on your company culture, on your product, on your service. And not enough time is really spent on that customer service aspect. And a big part of just like I said, it's, you know, sort of it's like the Green Book is those conversations that are had and you're creating an additional experience that's contributing, to their vacation, you know, to them having a good time to personal, personal recommendations and, or, you know, business relationships and friendships that stem out of that.

00;23;31;08 - 00;23;32;16
Jerry Lassos

00;23;32;18 - 00;23;41;21
Rev. Will Mebane
All right. I'm going to, bring our co-host in on this. And, because I want to hear what she has to say. Being the world traveler that she is herself.

00;23;41;21 - 00;23;42;09
Jerry Lassos

00;23;42;11 - 00;23;43;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Visiting places.

00;23;44;01 - 00;23;44;23
Michael Kasparian
And,

00;23;44;25 - 00;23;49;18
Rev. Will Mebane
And then what? What do you think about. What are you sitting on?

00;23;49;21 - 00;24;12;24
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, I'm. I'm sitting on a few things. I definitely thought about the Green Book when you were discussing your originally, your website, which I have used, to fine restaurants on Martha's Vineyard and say love is a store that I now go into all the time when I'm on the island. So I think that, I think kind of more of what I'm thinking along those lines might be better suited for the second part of the conversation for today.

00;24;12;26 - 00;24;32;19
Onjalé Scott Price
But one thing I want to talk about was the culture that you mentioned. And I think that is so important and but so overlooked. I don't think people realize that the culture really starts from the top and goes down. So I'll use chick fil A as an example whether or not you agree with their whatever, or you like their food or not.

00;24;32;21 - 00;24;48;05
Onjalé Scott Price
I have never had a bad experience and chick fil A, they always say, you know, my pleasure to serve you. They're always very kind. And that is just the culture that has been built. So I know no matter where I go, what chick fil I go to, I'm going to have a good experience because that's just how it's built into it.

00;24;48;07 - 00;25;15;13
Onjalé Scott Price
When I look at some businesses, especially here in Falmouth, that are struggling with their their staffing because of housing, which I won't go too far into because as we all know, I could go on forever about affordable housing and our need of it here, but, I don't I don't think I had heard about people using housing to hang over their employees heads, but I, I could be that like, I, I could see that not being, you know, too far off for something that that could happen here.

00;25;15;13 - 00;25;36;28
Onjalé Scott Price
And I, I think with our staffing problem with people not being able to find housing and so not working, you end up with people who are overwhelmed, people who are flustered. A few times recently, I went somewhere and it was very obvious that the person who I was dealing with was very new, very overwhelmed. And I knew that that was of no fault of that person.

00;25;37;03 - 00;25;54;13
Onjalé Scott Price
That's not their problem. But they they seem to not be getting the support that they needed within their own business to be able to put on a good face. For I'm not a tourist, but I was in a tourist area to put on a good face for their customers, and that's a no fault of their own. But I think that goes back to the culture you can be.

00;25;54;15 - 00;26;20;04
Onjalé Scott Price
Unfortunately, you can be understaffed and still have people train and still have people feeling like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but I know I have the resource to go and find out what I need rather than like stumbling over themselves. So I think that culture pieces is really important. And adding on to that, I have heard examples of people who will encounter a person of color or a black person as a, as a waitress, as an example.

00;26;20;07 - 00;26;42;06
Onjalé Scott Price
And those stereotypes that they have about people are they're really able to come through. So if you really believe that black people don't tip at a restaurant, you might be inclined to go ahead and put that tip on somebody. Check. And I have seen that happen, and I've heard from friends who work in the industry that they'll come back into the kitchen and somebody is like, why don't you put a tip on that?

00;26;42;07 - 00;26;43;22
Onjalé Scott Price
You told them that.

00;26;43;24 - 00;26;45;10
Onjalé Scott Price
Parties have for more have tip, but.

00;26;45;10 - 00;27;06;06
Onjalé Scott Price
It's really it's actually only six. And they're like, yeah, well I think that was going to get me money out of them. So I went ahead and put it on. And so that also goes back to the culture of this has not been discussed. This is people have not been trained about this. You know, you can have these negative stereotypes and preconceived notions in your head, but when you act on them that it becomes a problem.

00;27;06;06 - 00;27;31;04
Onjalé Scott Price
And if no one is having these conversations and checking you on that, things like this can happen. So, so yeah. So and then off of the tip thing, you know that on our end because we know that that's a stereotype right. Wherever we go we make it a point to even do extra right. So so it is we know it's a stereotype and it's on us okay.

00;27;31;04 - 00;28;02;06
Onjalé Scott Price
The one individual that you know, somebody you know, that's entering a business that day, we're representing all brown people that day. At that moment, to make sure that we are tipping and exceeding okay, whatever that percentage wasn't exceeding 20%. To make it very clear that it's not all of us have. Absolutely. And that's also to your point about when you were traveling and having to think about having your husband's badge and having sticker on your car.

00;28;02;09 - 00;28;25;19
Onjalé Scott Price
And those are the types of things that whether you were traveling for vacation or just traveling for whatever, those are the kinds of things that that we think about. So it's not even just that we encounter racism at specific establishments, but it's all of the things that we have to think about. All of the racist encounters that we could possibly have during our trip that we're now having to think about as we travel.

00;28;25;22 - 00;28;26;04
Onjalé Scott Price
And.

00;28;26;06 - 00;28;51;21
Michael Kasparian
You know, I hope when you're exceeding the 20% tip, it's because you've also they've exceeded your expectation of the service they provide you. So you know that that creates a good room right there too. So yeah, if you're overachieving for the reason you're saying and the service you're getting is inferior, then that's not helping situation. So I mean, I mean, let's face it, you know, I mean, for me, I cannot relate to that story you're telling me.

00;28;51;21 - 00;29;23;27
Michael Kasparian
My heart breaks when I hear about that. You traveling down, because I don't encounter the same thing unduly. And I have had this conversation before, where she had said to me, look, you know, you you don't look like me. So you get treated differently. And she's absolutely right. I mean, the closest I can come to even understanding anything like that is like, if I go somewhere or got pulled over looking like I do right now, the shirt and tie on, it's very different than on the weekends when I'm on my motorcycle and I've got an armful of ink, which I do, and I'm looked at and treated very differently.

00;29;23;27 - 00;29;55;07
Michael Kasparian
That's the closest I can get. But you know, people unfortunately, judge books by their covers. And a lot of that, unfortunately, is based on, preconceived notions or, unfortunately, what they've learned, along the way from others. So that's just really sad. But, you know, you know, that that back again to the whole over tipping, you know, all it's it's you hope you're getting the service that you deserve for that as well.

00;29;55;14 - 00;29;56;10
Michael Kasparian
Right.

00;29;56;13 - 00;29;56;21
Jerry Lassos

00;29;56;21 - 00;30;13;01
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm not I'm a big tipper. I my dad had a restaurant and so I busted those tables and waited those tables. So I have a sensitivity because of that. But, no, if the if the service is bad and I'm not going to get that extra five.

00;30;13;03 - 00;30;14;27
Onjalé Scott Price
No, then I get the extra.

00;30;14;29 - 00;30;23;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh no no no no no. But like, I mean, I want to stay with you for a second. Because you're money, man. You're you're the money man.

00;30;23;10 - 00;30;24;04
Michael Kasparian
Oh. No.

00;30;24;06 - 00;30;51;13
Rev. Will Mebane
I never have an MBA. You represent these, businesses that are a part of our capitalist system and, looking to get a good return on their investment at all. And I just want to share with you, as I was doing some research in preparation for this show. To try to figure out how much money black folks and brown folks spin on, leisure travel, for example.

00;30;51;13 - 00;31;33;16
Rev. Will Mebane
And what I discovered was that, an organization called mandala. Mandala research has been doing research on black tourism for, for years. And the most recent report I could find was from, was released in 2020. And it said that in 2019, $109.4 billion, right, $109.4 billion were spent by black Americans on leisure travel. Now, where I come from, $109.4 billion, that's real money, as they say, right?

00;31;33;19 - 00;31;53;14
Rev. Will Mebane
So what? And so as a business person, and I'm kind of joking with you a little bit, but also serious as a business person, what would you be saying to, then we're going to move into the second part of the question, which is, you know, what can what can we do to address this, the racism that's in the tourist industry.

00;31;53;16 - 00;32;02;24
Rev. Will Mebane
But what would you say to to businesses? In Falmouth and that you represent about what they should be doing?

00;32;02;26 - 00;32;24;03
Michael Kasparian
Well, you know, I think we've always taken the approach, you know, from the point, you know, from my predecessor, Jay Zavala, who really has taken the chamber and turned it from just completely business focus to community focused, understanding that what's good for the community is good for business, and what's good for business is good for the community.

00;32;24;03 - 00;32;43;15
Michael Kasparian
You can't really make a differentiation that, what I would say is that businesses, you know, need to welcome everybody. And I think, you know, it goes back to, you know, what India's talking about with the decals with, black owned business. And then, of course, there was a big movement and still is of women owned businesses.

00;32;43;15 - 00;33;10;16
Michael Kasparian
And I think it's really nice when people are given an opportunity to frequent and support establishments. That may mean something to them, you know, and, and I think by but not only that. Okay. So I'm a woman owned business or I'm a black owned business, but I welcome everybody. You know, we participate in that, when, when the store shops are all putting on, everyone is welcome here with, if you recall, will I know you were involved in that as well.

00;33;10;18 - 00;33;30;24
Michael Kasparian
So, you know, I guess what I would say to businesses if I was doing like, sales training, if you will, or business training would be that, you know, you need to do whatever you can in order to make people feel welcome is so far as even putting up all our welcome making, you know, verbal and making it visual so people understand that they are welcoming there and then giving proper training.

00;33;30;24 - 00;33;56;20
Michael Kasparian
Training is so is so crucial. It really is. You never have a second chance to make a first impression. And if you're going to be in the retail business, whether it's accommodations or restaurants or a merchant, you need to be welcoming. I mean, look at here's the deal, right? Everybody's money is green, right? So the reality is that you treat people as individuals and equals and and, you know, one thing takes care of that will take care of the rest.

00;33;56;20 - 00;34;20;09
Michael Kasparian
But it comes down to a sincere respect and it comes down to if you're a business owner and you know you have employees who may not be treating people equally for whatever reason, they need to go. And because they're representing you and they're representing your business, they're not doing you any favor long term. So and I know the businesses we talk to, I mean, so many people do take it very seriously.

00;34;20;12 - 00;34;33;19
Michael Kasparian
I am proud to say that many of the business owners and, of which the majority of the businesses that are members of the chamber, one, two, three employees, work really hard to provide that type of environment where all are welcome.

00;34;33;22 - 00;34;50;14
Rev. Will Mebane
But I'm going to move us in a minute to the second question. And here, what are people on the street had to say about, you know, what can be done? And, Michael, you've already begun to lay some of that runway for. So I appreciate that, but I want to go back before we do that to where we started.

00;34;50;16 - 00;35;35;08
Rev. Will Mebane
I was really surprised when the people on the street said that put so much emphasis on the employees, on the staff, that that's where you see the racism in the tourism industry. And actually that had to listen to those comments a couple of times to try to, fully, more fully understand what they were getting at. And so I wonder if either, you India or you, Michael, have any other thoughts about how it is specifically that racism in the tourism industry shows up in this, Dicom enemy, if I can, between the employees and the people they're serving.

00;35;35;08 - 00;35;37;12
Rev. Will Mebane
Any thoughts from either one of you on that?

00;35;37;14 - 00;36;02;02
India Rose
Well, I'll chime in just also, you know, not just as, you know, sort of the business consultant, but also as a business owner who's in her shop on a regular basis. And I have a new business. So one of the things that I experience a lot is that people are usually surprised that I own the place, so that that's always a very interesting, you know, conversation, you know, with that.

00;36;02;05 - 00;36;23;24
India Rose
So and often, you know, depending on how the conversation goes, I listen to the conversations, I listen to the feedback that they're having, you know, sort of amongst their group and, really sort of take that in. And, you know, unless we're having a one on one conversation or unless they're asking, you know, they don't necessarily know that I'm the owner, right?

00;36;23;24 - 00;36;46;07
India Rose
That we and the, the shift, there's a shift that happens, when they do find out that I own, I own it. There was an instance that happened last week. There was a woman who dropped off a flier that she wanted me to put in the window of my store, and when she dropped it off, she did not do her homework as far as ownership.

00;36;46;10 - 00;36;59;19
India Rose
And she asked if I could, you know, give, you know, a sponsor sheets to the manager or to the owner. And not only did she say that, but she said to him.

00;36;59;22 - 00;37;00;07
Jerry Lassos

00;37;00;09 - 00;37;21;09
India Rose
So it was, you know, it was it was 2 p.m.. And it was, it was a white woman who lives here on the islands. And the event just so happens that it was an event about a, an African woman that was doing this presentation. Right, and very dark skinned, beautiful black woman. So I what I didn't tell her on the spot.

00;37;21;09 - 00;37;59;17
India Rose
I was I just sort of sat back and I took in the interaction and just took it and shook my head. And then I sent her a really nice long email, introducing myself, introducing the black owned business directory and, you know, really making it clear not only she, she take a different approach and so she do her homework, but also maybe sort of check what her assumptions were, you know, in that instance as well, because I could have been a very good resource for her, you know, with that event, and maybe even spreading the word, had that interaction gone a little differently.

00;37;59;19 - 00;38;24;06
India Rose
So, so that was, you know, just as far as ownership is, you know, a very interesting type of thing. And when it comes to the employees and sort of circling back a little bit more to, you know, what that company culture is and what that training should look like, there's an additional layer that we experi hands is not just the brown faces, but is also an accent.

00;38;24;12 - 00;38;53;10
India Rose
Right. So if you have your employees have an accent or if you hire in people of different cultures as a manager or as an owner, it is really your responsibility as an owner and manager to really have those conversations, to have a certain training, to understand, to have a better understanding, as opposed to using that accent in a way, which is what a lot of owners and managers do as sort of less than.

00;38;53;12 - 00;39;16;17
India Rose
And that sets the tone for, you know, really throughout the company culture. So it's one thing to, you know, be the help, okay, so to speak. And being a brown face when you add another layer with an accent, just as was mentioned, you know, with the people on the street, was sort of that becoming invisible and is that invisible component.

00;39;16;17 - 00;39;40;03
India Rose
And I really think that with that employee and ownership management, relationship that is really up to management and ownership to not make them invisible. And I think that the way that they train, depending on, you know, especially in the hospitality industry, is that they train them to be invisible, right, for them to provide a high end service, okay.

00;39;40;04 - 00;40;10;11
India Rose
And for them to just experience, you know, whatever is happening, their their magical luxury experience, and for you to be quietly in the background to act as though you are invisible to everyone you know, while they're having that experience. So training in a different way and really sort of making, you know, sort of taking away that invisibility component, you know, you can be in the background and, you know, let people have their experience and, you know, you know, joining in with the party and grabbing a drink or anything.

00;40;10;11 - 00;40;27;28
India Rose
Right? It's very different. But when you are training and literally teaching your brown staff or your staff with the accents to be invisible, that's how people are going to treat them.

00;40;28;00 - 00;40;48;19
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. You know, I'm thinking again about our mutual friend, Bill Zimmer of the, owner of the Flying Bridge and other restaurants. He told me a story of how. And this was recently, and before he died,

00;40;48;22 - 00;40;50;10
Jerry Lassos

00;40;50;13 - 00;41;08;00
Rev. Will Mebane
He has some customers, white customers. And, the Flying Bridge staff are mostly Jamaicans or black. Brown skinned folks. And this particular party, demanded that they send over a white person to wait on the table.

00;41;08;03 - 00;41;09;20
Jerry Lassos

00;41;09;22 - 00;41;13;12
Rev. Will Mebane
And Bill said, no, you can leave him.

00;41;13;14 - 00;41;14;15
Michael Kasparian
I'm not surprised.

00;41;14;18 - 00;41;16;00
Rev. Will Mebane
But it's like.

00;41;16;02 - 00;41;30;11
Michael Kasparian
You know. Oh, yeah, I'm not surprised. So he's a great example, right? And he's a great example. You're right, a huge loss, huge loss. But, you know, there you go. He he believed it and he saw it and he gave everyone an equal opportunity. So.

00;41;30;13 - 00;41;54;20
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, listen, I'm going to share because we on time. What, halfway through our show, we want to get to our next question, which is, what can we do? What we what can we do about eradicating eliminating racism in the tourism industry? We've already put our toes in the water a little bit on that, but let's hear what our people on the street had to say in response to that question.

00;41;54;22 - 00;42;02;25
Rev. Will Mebane
And then we'll be back with our answer. The audience.

00;42;02;27 - 00;42;18;15
Erik Albert
Yeah, just like I said before, it goes back to talking to people, finding out their story because everyone's got one. Oh, people on vacation. They want to either tell their story or be listened to. And like I said, if you can meet the staff and find out how you ended up here, you know that you can find out something about them.

00;42;18;15 - 00;42;23;00
Erik Albert
They find out something about you, you're connected to them. You're breaking down barriers.

00;42;23;02 - 00;42;47;12
Jerry Lassos
Perhaps the staff that interacts with the public could mention them or highlight them. Maybe the business could display, some type of, support or pride in them, maybe pictures of them in their families that are, you know, as people enter the restaurant that kind of highlight, who they are.

00;42;47;14 - 00;43;20;05
Olivia Masih White
Things that I think that tourist industry can do. And the first one is. Advertisement. How do you advertise in your brochure that you are open to a diverse group, that everyone is welcome there? Now you may find some of the hotel that will say, we take dogs, animals, welcome, welcome. But you never see or hear anything about the diversity is, included.

00;43;20;07 - 00;43;43;26
Olivia Masih White
Another, thing that, I came, reading through article was that there was lack of diversity at visible positions that are on top. I'm not talking about people who wash your dishes to make your bed. You find them all over. They are. This is how the tourist industry survived. So we've just.

00;43;43;26 - 00;43;58;16
Onjalé Scott Price
Heard from some people on the street the question of how do we address racism in the tourist industry? And some that I felt was really important, that Olivia said was advertising that everyone is welcome. And we've touched on that a little bit with having a sticker.

00;43;58;16 - 00;44;00;13
Onjalé Scott Price
Of black owned business and.

00;44;00;16 - 00;44;24;10
Onjalé Scott Price
Black Lives Matter rainbows, and a place that immediately comes to mind. Is Provincetown ever been on Commercial Street in Provincetown? It is one of the most welcoming places. There are rainbow flags everywhere and Black Lives Matter and people are smiling. And every business that I've been into in Provincetown, even if it was obvious I wasn't going in there to buy anything and I'm just kind of poking around was like, hey, how you doing?

00;44;24;16 - 00;44;43;10
Onjalé Scott Price
Come in and have such a welcoming culture to everybody. If they were like that, with everybody who walked in the door. And I think that's a really a good model, it it made me want to spend more money in some of those places. So I don't know if anyone else experiences where you go into somewhere and people aren't very friendly or they don't speak to you and you're like.

00;44;43;10 - 00;44;44;07
Onjalé Scott Price
All right, well, maybe I don't want.

00;44;44;07 - 00;45;06;03
Onjalé Scott Price
To. Maybe I want to give you my money. Maybe I don't want to support your business if you can't acknowledge me. So I think that, advertising people would welcome and actually acting welcoming. I worked at T-Mobile, for a few months, and one of the things they taught us in training, because training is really important, is no matter what you're doing, if somebody walks in the door, you greet them.

00;45;06;06 - 00;45;30;13
Onjalé Scott Price
If you're working with somebody, you say, excuse me, welcome to T-Mobile. We'll be right with you to let people know that you acknowledge them. You appreciate their presence and that you're you're going to you're going to serve them in some way. You're going to work with them because they come into your establishment. So I think the training, the training piece is really important because that's what we learned in training and also just acting, welcoming, acting the way that you want to be perceived.

00;45;30;19 - 00;45;59;22
Onjalé Scott Price
So I'll open it up to the panel, your comments on on how we address these issues. Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more as far as the training piece and that and you've really touched on the customer service aspect, which is so important in the tourism industry. And it can, depending on what the diversity is. So like on the vineyard, you know, we definitely have, a lot more diversity.

00;45;59;24 - 00;46;18;18
India Rose
You know, we have a we have a lot of black owned business owners. We have and I would say a lot, but we probably have more, homeowners, black homeowners, and definitely, you know, the visitors and, you know, a huge influx, and that also, you know, then there's a ton of events that stem from that.

00;46;18;18 - 00;46;46;23
India Rose
So we have, you know, we have the African American Film Festival. We have, a lot of, you know, this week actually, in particular right now is Legacy Week on the vineyard, which is also known as HBCU week. So it's an entire week dedicated to HBCU crews and different events that, we're going to go around the different conversations that go around, you know, black education and, you know, the sororities and fraternities and, you know, sort of all of these different things.

00;46;46;23 - 00;47;16;29
India Rose
And that's part of, you know, the attraction for different, you know, different things that are happening here on the vineyard. So if a particular area like Falmouth or anywhere else really wanted to actually attract additional diversity, then those are some of the things to really sort of think about what you're doing and what you're not doing, to really draw people of different backgrounds, you know, to the area, you know, what what is happening and what what can you do, you know, to sort of bring people in in that way.

00;47;17;06 - 00;47;46;18
India Rose
And customer service has, has no color. Right? So sort of across the board, the greeting and everything else. But depending on your environment, it can be perceived in a certain way. So there have been I know of numerous situations where definitely black visitors who were on the island felt some type of way based off of how they were treated, based off of not getting good customer service and feeling like maybe it was because of the color of their skin.

00;47;46;21 - 00;48;07;02
India Rose
Right? Based on above, on their experience with the business owner or whoever the staff was at the time. So that is, you know, one, if you're teaching good customer service, sort of, you know, throughout, your training that is coming back to the management and ownership and, you know, sort of the company culture part of it as well.

00;48;07;08 - 00;48;31;27
India Rose
But that customer service aspect can really solve a lot of different, you know, problems that could be perceived a certain way, whether it is or it isn't. When you're treating everybody and greeting everybody with that smile when you're asking, you know, just let me know if I can help you with anything. I'll be right over here. Right when something like that is consistent, you're creating a certain level of comfort for shopping or dining.

00;48;32;00 - 00;48;58;29
India Rose
You're creating a little bit more of a welcoming environment in that way. You know, one of the things I always said that I was going to do and never really had the time for, was really making in a bigger effort as far as making Martha's Vineyard a customer service friendly environment, right? And really working with business owners and, you know, some of the upper ups to really say, listen, you know, we want people to continue to come here on a regular basis.

00;48;58;29 - 00;49;19;03
India Rose
They have other options. They can go to the Hamptons, they can go to Nantucket, they can go to different places where maybe they might have a better experience. Right. So if we can collectively make customer service okay and our staff a priority in that way, then we're not only changing, you know, the individual company cultures, but we're changing how, you know, comfortable.

00;49;19;03 - 00;49;42;14
Onjalé Scott Price
We're making people feel when we have those initial interactions. Absolutely. I think you really hit on a good point about the community aspect. And I know Michael mentioned early that was good for business. It's good for the community and vice versa. It's really interesting point about showing in the community that you are welcoming to people by having things that those people would be interested in doing.

00;49;42;16 - 00;50;05;06
Onjalé Scott Price
So one thing that we started doing at the Woods Hole Diversity Advisory Committee, we do Juneteenth and pre-pandemic, we started doing activities in downtown Falmouth because we wanted to let people know that not only are there black people here, there's not a lot of us, but we're here. But also we are celebrating Juneteenth, which is, a, you know, it's a national holiday, but it's a black holiday.

00;50;05;08 - 00;50;24;10
Onjalé Scott Price
And so we're saying we are welcoming to black people, to people of color. We want to celebrate things that are important to them. And so hopefully people in the future will know, oh, Falmouth is the place to go for Juneteenth if we're in Massachusetts or on the East Coast, because we know they're going to have something that we can participate in and we can be excited about.

00;50;24;16 - 00;50;30;12
Onjalé Scott Price
So I think that asking the community and the businesses is really important. What do you think, Michael?

00;50;30;14 - 00;50;44;01
Michael Kasparian
Well, you know, those are those are great points. I think the education we have talked a lot about that, the training. But, you know, you brought a Provincetown to an interesting, you know, interesting because, you know, when I think of Provincetown town, you know, I think a little bit about Providence, where I'm from, which is what diverse.

00;50;44;01 - 00;51;03;09
Michael Kasparian
I mean, it's a diverse place. I grew up in a diverse place. Provincetown is diverse, and it wasn't always the case. It was primarily fishermen. And then it became an artist colony, and then it became a place, a safe haven for, for for gay people. And so now it becomes this welcoming place because you have people who would not welcome anywhere else who kind of went there.

00;51;03;09 - 00;51;25;15
Michael Kasparian
And now they're trying to welcome everybody. And it kind of evolved into what it is. And I think that's, you know, that's an important, fact to know that, you know, here are people who know how it felt, right, to not be welcome. So here they are welcoming others because they know firsthand how it feels. You know, I think on on the vineyard, the benefit and the advantage that you have is the fact that you're right.

00;51;25;20 - 00;51;49;08
Michael Kasparian
There are people of color who are property owners, many, many who own second homes. You know, there aren't many people of color who own second homes in Falmouth, where we are. It's a totally different experience. And when if you go to Oak Bluffs, it feels much more like being in a place like Provincetown or Providence or Boston, or an urban environment where people are just used to having more, diversity.

00;51;49;11 - 00;52;15;09
Michael Kasparian
I question often if it's a generational thing. You know, I have two daughters who don't see color. They just don't. They they don't. It's a very interesting, you know, part of that, I have to say, it's because of, I think, the way they were raised, and I'm proud to say that, but also, I think just with their friends and all, you know, they are much more open to, of people from different backgrounds and, and, and, and diversity.

00;52;15;11 - 00;52;41;10
Michael Kasparian
And so I think there's hope going forward with as the younger generations doing that. But before we can get to that part, I know one thing Angela and I have spoke about has is, if there isn't a place for people to live, then there isn't going to be a way to attract people of diversity. And unfortunately, what's happening in Falmouth is we're becoming an incredibly overpriced, high priced retirement community.

00;52;41;13 - 00;53;02;12
Michael Kasparian
And this is where it's going to get really tricky for the businesses and where our concerns are. So people that continue to move in here who are older, primarily. And and the reality is it's primarily retired people who are white, who are moving here from suburban areas that are moving here. So you have a high need for services.

00;53;02;15 - 00;53;35;26
Michael Kasparian
So more businesses are opening up that need to provide services, but they can't hire people because workers can't afford to live here. And that's not just people of color, that's single moms. That's a lot of people who aren't able to just, you know, provide the. So until you can change that formula where there's equilibrium and there's diversity within the community itself, I think it's going to be hard to set an example where people of color feel comfortable coming here if there's not just more people of color living here.

00;53;35;28 - 00;54;02;28
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, that's a good point. And yeah, and I'd like to just sort of piggyback a little bit just off of sort of like the not seeing color piece that you mentioned. I think it really I think that it's important to see color, and that that is a big part of it. So, you know, whether it's the, you know, the retailer that, you know, it's going off to a shopping show or, you know, is, you know, picking, you know, doing things wholesale or putting something in the window.

00;54;03;05 - 00;54;30;13
India Rose
I think that representation is really important. And I think that really, you know, seeing and understanding, you know, when you do see color, right, and making sure I think you have to see it in order to, really sort of include it in that way. Right? So that representation is important. And when somebody you know, walks by my store, they see representation the way that my mannequins are.

00;54;30;13 - 00;55;06;27
India Rose
I have, one that's just a solid with no face black mannequin in my store and in my windows there's silver. And I did that on purpose. Right. Where it wasn't necessarily giving them a nationality in that way. I make sure that whatever is in my window, I have these really cute kids puzzles, from a black owned business that, you know, all of the little people on there are all different colors, and there are white families and black families that gravitate towards that because it is inclusive, because they're not used to seeing representation.

00;55;06;29 - 00;55;25;12
India Rose
At Christmas time, you might not see a black Santa. And one of the things that, you know, a small business could do, for instance, is put a black Santa in their window, right? Or include a black Santa on a card on their rack. There are little things that when you, you know, do see color, you're putting it at the forefront.

00;55;25;12 - 00;55;42;10
India Rose
You're making it a priority of inclusivity, you know, to include those type of things. When you're not thinking about that, you're, you're it's sort of tunnel vision in that way. And you're not adding that different representation. I think it's important.

00;55;42;12 - 00;55;47;11
Onjalé Scott Price
All right, Rev, I see your wheels turning.

00;55;47;14 - 00;56;38;24
Rev. Will Mebane
You know me too well. Yeah. So, Yeah, I think these little things, these very what may seem, in the scheme of things, be very insignificant. Things like, a black Santa's face or black cards on the rack or signs and what have you really can be very powerful messages to the community. And I'm thinking about, again, where we live, right at the entrance to downtown Falmouth is one of the most high profile high traffic areas in in Falmouth next to this beautiful church on six acres and and so last year, we put up a sign on the roof of the, of the, house that says Black Lives Matter.

00;56;38;26 - 00;56;54;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. And I took it down in the winter, and I took it down because I didn't want it to get all weather weather beaten. I wanted to put it back up again. And I was amazed at the number of people who contacted me and said, what happened to your sign? But aren't you going to? You're going to get another one.

00;56;54;14 - 00;57;14;04
Rev. Will Mebane
You got to put your sign back up. And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm going to put it up. I'm just waiting until the tourists come back, because what I discovered is and I'm and it's happening again this summer, the number of people who walk by the house stop pointing to the sign, often with children in tow, taking pictures.

00;57;14;06 - 00;57;40;02
Rev. Will Mebane
And if my wife or I happen to be out in the yard cop car commenting or thank you for doing that, that is so important. You have a beautiful house. But you know what's the most beautiful thing is that sign that you have up there where we've heard those kinds of comments. And so something again, so simple can be powerful in terms of communicating the openness of a community.

00;57;40;04 - 00;58;06;02
Rev. Will Mebane
Now, some of our Olivia, I think, in our person on the street was talking about, you know, ownership. You got to have, you know, if you're going to eradicate racism in tourism, you got to have not just black managers, but you got to have black owners of restaurants and places with accommodations and what have you. That's a bigger boulder to push up the hill.

00;58;06;02 - 00;58;43;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. But putting a sign or something symbolic out can have a very powerful, powerful effect also. And I and I, you know, I was thinking back when I was doing that, reading that article about how black folks spending $109.4 billion, on tourism, and is probably increased now because of they said it was it was going to go up because black folks not only have more disposable income now, but, because of the, reckoning, racial reckoning that's taking place in the country, that people are feeling more comfortable traveling.

00;58;43;08 - 00;59;10;17
Rev. Will Mebane
Although this relates back to what you were saying, Andy, about how, you know, when your husband and you have to do when you're traveling it that the the research said that 15% of those responding to the survey said that a fear of racial profiling, a fear of racial profiling, impacts their decision about whether they will travel in the next 12 months or so.

00;59;10;20 - 00;59;25;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Right? So if you've got a community that is communicating messages that, aren't welcoming and where black and brown folks are going to feel like they're going to be profile, people are going to come there. That's right. It's not going to go there.

00;59;26;02 - 00;59;42;15
India Rose
And that's going to travel everywhere, right? I mean, they black people travel the world. So but if you're just looking for a place necessarily that there are a whole bunch of other black people, they want to go, maybe they just want to feel that they're going to be safe. They want to feel that they're going to be welcomed.

00;59;42;15 - 00;59;57;09
India Rose
You know, when they actually go there, that they're going to have an experience. You know, they've not necessarily looking for something black, right, in order to be there. But they they want it to be, you know, safe. Right? They want a safe experience.

00;59;57;09 - 00;59;57;27
Jerry Lassos

00;59;57;29 - 01;00;17;27
Rev. Will Mebane
You want to be able to go into a restaurant and be treated respectfully and get the same kind of service that white people get when they go into that restaurant or, and give the same sort of service from the concierge or whatever. If you're in a, swanky hotel, you know, as everybody else gets. No. You. Absolutely.

01;00;17;27 - 01;00;40;12
Rev. Will Mebane
Absolutely. Right. Yeah. But we have for just a few minutes, before we need to close out this episode of The Conversation, I think it's been a terrific conversation. And, you know, I have to talk to our other producers. I'm Deborah Rogers from, Sctv and, Alan Russell. And so we might have to continue this, this conversation tonight.

01;00;40;12 - 01;00;52;15
Rev. Will Mebane
It's been very informative, but I give each of you a minute or so if you have some, closing comments that you would like to offer in response to what has already been shared.

01;00;52;18 - 01;01;17;00
India Rose
And a tidbit, that really like the classism components, you know, because, the base of our conversation today and obviously there's so many layers and we could talk about this for hours, you know, because it's so important, is definitely sort of the classism component. So we've been talking about, you know, very much sort of white versus you know, brown and black in that way.

01;01;17;02 - 01;01;44;24
India Rose
And there is especially, you know, because we have a, you know, a very diverse, you know, community that comes to the island is that there is sort of a classism component as well, from even black people that are wealthy that also treat other black and brown people a certain way because of a certain class. So that's something that I have experienced personally does seem to come up on the island.

01;01;44;27 - 01;02;07;04
India Rose
I have been treated I worked at a golf club in an office for ten years, many years back. And the way that I was treated by certain members, you know, was very interesting in that way. I've been treated like my health, not just, you know, by by white people, but also by black people.

01;02;07;07 - 01;02;36;02
India Rose
You know, that of means, you know, in that way. So I think the classism component really comes in when we're talking about tourism in that way, because when we're talking about tourism and we're talking about travel, we're talking about disposable income, we're talking about having means having access, you know, beyond what we're, you know, after we pay our rent of our mortgage, right, that we actually have extra money to then be able to go do something else.

01;02;36;04 - 01;03;06;04
India Rose
So that's that in and of itself, you know, already has, you know, sort of preconceived and stereotypes that sort of go with that, who's actually doing the traveling and who actually has the money to do so. So just, you know, a little bit of the classism component, I think, you know, is relatable across, you know, the Cayman Islands and basically, you know, whether it's Vail in the winter time, you know, in different areas sort of across towards in that way.

01;03;06;04 - 01;03;32;20
Onjalé Scott Price
So I think that that's something, you know, I'd love to chat about in another conversation. I just want to quickly add about the classes. One thing that I have realized, our affordable housing crisis, while it has a racial component, is classism at the core of you aren't good enough to serve me in a restaurant. In a coffee shop, to bag my you take my blood to take care of me, but you're not good enough to be my neighbor.

01;03;32;27 - 01;03;45;06
Onjalé Scott Price
And that's the classism that I feel like you're you're talking about. But I think that is part of our housing issue. And I always feel the need to talk about affordable housing. So I pass it off to you, said my piece.

01;03;45;08 - 01;03;45;20
Jerry Lassos

01;03;45;20 - 01;04;01;25
Michael Kasparian
I think is fitting. I think you hit the nail on the head and actually, you know, going to school for sociology. Well, before I went to business school, Tom, I, I couldn't agree more. It's all about, you know, it's all about groups. And it really does come down to class and and caste or however you want to.

01;04;01;27 - 01;04;31;04
Michael Kasparian
But it does come down to that. And and it ties right into the affordable housing issue. And getting people from a diverse background, whether it is people of color, whether it is a single mother, whether it's just at this point, police officers, teachers, nurses who can afford to live within the community. You know, if we don't, provide opportunities to have equilibrium in our communities and get people who can come here, can start a business, maintain a business, hire other people regardless of their background.

01;04;31;04 - 01;04;56;17
Michael Kasparian
We're not going to get a diverse community. We won't have diverse diversity visiting this community because they won't feel welcome coming here. And then in the end, unfortunately, it's going to be business failure because they won't be able to hire people. You know, people are only, you know, if you're paying people, you know, $20 an hour now in fast food restaurants and Dunkin Donuts, you know, they're doing that on the other side of the bridge, too.

01;04;56;22 - 01;05;16;12
Michael Kasparian
So you can't just keep importing people over from the other side of the bridge, and you have to provide an opportunity for people to live in their community. It all comes down to equilibrium. And and India's absolutely right. You know, people who have disposable income are going to spend that money. And you want them to be spending it here within our community visiting here.

01;05;16;12 - 01;05;39;27
Michael Kasparian
But you want people who live here to be able to spend money in the community as well. So yeah, I and I think the key really is, what I love about is the conversation is the key really is continuing the conversation. I, I, you know, I'm very optimistic and very hopeful that things will improve and that we will get where we want to be by continuing the conversation.

01;05;39;27 - 01;05;54;25
Michael Kasparian
The more we talk about this, the more people who are included. The all the ideas, if we're respectful of each other's ideas and we're respectful of change and we're open and welcome, and we work together as a true community, we can achieve those goals.

01;05;54;28 - 01;06;27;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Michael, we thank you for being part of the conversation today. Michael Kazarian, president and CEO of the Falmouth Chamber of Commerce, India. Rose, entrepreneur, business owner, consultant, changing in the world, at least on Martha's Vineyard. So grateful to you for being part of the conversation. And as always, Anjali Scott Price, it's always a pleasure to be with you, and I'm grateful for the relationship we have.

01;06;27;14 - 01;06;58;04
Rev. Will Mebane
And also to our good friends at CTV, Deborah Rogers, the executive director president, it had a domino of, the or that organization. And Alan Russell passed him over there. Well, we, we appreciate their support, and we hope you will be part of the conversation, wherever you may be, in your place of work, your place of worship in your homes, on the golf course where we might be.

01;06;58;06 - 01;07;17;28
Rev. Will Mebane
Keep the conversation going, because that's how we will make change for the better of all of us. Thank you. Until next time, I'm Will Mebane signing off for Onjale Scott Price.

01;07;18;00 - 01;07;18;14
Rev. Will Mebane