Black Lives Matter
Download MP3Hello. My name is Will Mebane. Welcome to the conversation. This is a new show brought to you by FCTV here in Falmouth, Massachusetts on Cape Cod. It's a new show that came about because of incidents happening in the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd, of the rallies, protests, vigils that have been held, but more importantly, perhaps the conversations that have started and that are ongoing.
Rev. Will Mebane:And so with our good friends here at FCTV, we have come together to offer this venue of which you are gonna be a part. We're gonna ask you to join us in sharing your thoughts about a myriad of issues and questions that have come up about race and racism around the country, around the state and Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and even here, or maybe particularly here in our home, Falmouth. I'm delighted to have as cohost of this new show, this new offering, Onjalé Scott Price. Onjale is gonna introduce herself now and let let you know a little bit more about what we hope to accomplish with the show.
Onjalé Scott Price:Thanks, Rev. I'm very excited about this show. I think the best way for us to move forward as a community, as a culture, as a nation is to have difficult conversations, to talk about things that are uncomfortable, to have significant discourse about various topics. And I think the topics around race and racism in light of recent events is incredibly important. It's the elephant in the room.
Onjalé Scott Price:It's the the thing that's always there, but doesn't always get talked about. It influences us in ways that we don't even realize. And I think it's important for us to have these conversations so we can make Falmouth and our nation and the world a better place for all of us to live and enjoy. So I'm really looking forward to having some conversations with you, Rev, and with our guests, and with the community.
Rev. Will Mebane:Thanks, Onjalé. So neither Onjalé nor I profess to have the answers. In fact, we are quick to admit that we don't have the answers. We've got lots of questions, though. And so we're gonna pose some questions to you, members of
Robert Antonucci:the
Rev. Will Mebane:community, and you'll be hearing some answers to the questions we have for this first show. And who knows, in future shows, you might have a chance to be on camera as well and answer one of the questions that we're gonna pose. So without further ado, why don't we go now to the first question that we've asked some people here in Falmouth to address?
Henry St. Julien:What does Black Lives Matter mean to you?
Diane Jemmott:Black Lives Matter means to me different things. It mostly means to me that there's a validation that my life is important as a black woman in this country or in this world, actually. At the same time, it is very disheartening that in 2020, we have to proclaim that our lives matter. Well, to
Susan O'Brien:me, Black Lives Matter makes me think of the four hundred years of oppression that folks in this country have experienced, continued discriminatory behaviors. It also helps me to remember that change will only happen for humanity, when we see people as parts of humanity rather than defining them by race.
Henry St. Julien:It's it's for me, it's it's trying to get people not to be defensive. You know, when we talk about Black History Month and people say, hey, why is there a white history? Well, there's a problem. There is a problem. And so we focus on black history.
Henry St. Julien:We focus on, gender issue. We focus on different things when there's a problem. And so right now, there's always been this problem, but we're focused on it and we're like saying, let's do something. Let's not just cry out, but let's take positive steps.
Diane Jemmott:It makes me feel good when I ride around and I see signs. It makes me feel like people are paying attention and they care, but it also makes me sad that we have to put out signs. My belief is we're all human beings. We come into this world equal. We have created inequality, and it's time that it gets fixed.
Henry St. Julien:Our attention right now is on Black Lives Matter. I think it's a human right issue. I don't think it's politics, and that's what the problem is right now is we're all divided, but it's a human right issue. It doesn't matter whether you're right or left, there's suffering going on, and we should all be having our minds set on Black Lives Matter. So that's that's me.
Henry St. Julien:I I I really feel that that's it's a human condition. It's a human issue, and we should all jump in and say, yes. I agree with that.
Rev. Will Mebane:Welcome back. Wow. And those were some powerful responses we received from those who participated in our sort of on the street, but more like in the park interviews there. Lots for us to consider and to discuss, and Anji and I are privileged, delighted to be joined by three individuals who are who have joined the conversation and are gonna help us unpack some of what you have just heard. I first want to introduce and welcome Bob Antonucci, well known Falmouth resident, superintendent of schools, formerly here in Falmouth, Massachusetts Education Commissioner, and now president emeritus of Fitchburg College.
Rev. Will Mebane:And we thank you for for being with us today. Adam Shubash is also with us and grateful to Anji for making the connection with Adam to get him to be part of the conversation today. And we will be hearing a lot from him, and he has a very interesting background as all of all of our guests do. And there is a common thread between Adam, is a scientist in Witchhole, and the next person I'm gonna introduce, is Olivia Massey White and with Indian roots herself. So Adam and she share that in common.
Rev. Will Mebane:And I'll say a little bit more about each of you as we get into the conversation. So why don't we begin with asking you, Olivia, to give us your reaction to what you just saw and to give us what what do you think of when you hear the phrase black lives matter?
Olivia Masih White:You know, it's interesting having come from India some fifty plus years ago. So I have seen lots of racial discrimination from the sixties till now. So having seen this sign here and knowing that we will be taking part in conversation, I had time to think about what do I think about what lives matter. One of the thing that my first thing that comes to my mind and not only that when I see the sign, I have put signs in my own yard. So first I see the sign is I acknowledge that black lives really do matter.
Olivia Masih White:There's something to be said by putting the sign. They haven't been treated equally. They have not been given the kind of education or respect or privileges like everybody else did. So I put that sign up just to acknowledge that they have not been treated. And then I put the sign up because I want to take some responsibility, Responsibility that maybe somehow directly or indirectly, have not done enough so the black lives could matter.
Olivia Masih White:And last, I will say my third reason is that if I acknowledge it, if I take responsibility, then it's time for me personally to take some action take some action so justice could be done for all individuals who are blacks, who have not been given the privileges that others had.
Rev. Will Mebane:Well, we know that some signs, once they've been put up, have been taken down by vandals. And I'm gonna give Anja a chance to talk with Adam a little bit about that because I think she's familiar with an experience he may have had with that himself. But let me go to Bob first, and and first of all, I apologize. I referred to it as Fitchburg College. It showed you how old I am.
Rev. Will Mebane:Fitchburg State University. Grateful again for your presence with us today. So what comes to mind for you when you hear that phrase? When you hear when someone chanting, shouting, black lives matter. So what does that mean?
Robert Antonucci:First of all, I graduated from Pittsburgh State College when I was a college, so I accept your introduction. That was fine. What it means to me is a call to action. That phrase where I see it on signs, when I read about it in the newspaper, when I hear us talking about it today, it says to me, it's a call to action. We need to do something.
Robert Antonucci:You can say that we've done it in the past twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, hundred years. I don't think we've done as much as we should have done. And we're at a critical junction now in this country and in this world. As we heard in the videos, you know, we're talking about human beings. Human being, whether they're white, black, gay, transgender, whatever, is a human being.
Robert Antonucci:And so when we see that sign, we have to respect that. There has to be a respectful attitude toward people today. And I think that's what that sign brings to me when I see it. I'm glad we're seeing so many of it. I don't think it's sign that has anything derogatory about it, and and if anything, it has a positive ring to it.
Robert Antonucci:And so hopefully, as we see those signs, as we get out of this pandemic, we can begin to take more active action. I think now we're talking a lot about it. We'll continue to talk about that. This conversation is a perfect example. But at some point, we're going to have to take some aggressive steps.
Robert Antonucci:It's more than about the police. It's more than about government. It's about all of us. All of us have a critical role to play. We have to step up to the plate.
Robert Antonucci:I hate to use the baseball analogy. We have to hit that ball, and we have to make sure we hit some home runs.
Rev. Will Mebane:Anji, let me now I'm hand off to you and have you engage Adam in this conversation.
Onjalé Scott Price:Yeah. So I've been recently getting to know Adam, and one of our first conversations was actually about his Black Lives Matter signs that were stolen from his yard. And I know he lives over there off 28 right now, and I thought to myself, how how much do you really want to take a sign that you are willing to stop or pull over on such a busy road to take the sign out of someone's yard? So not only are you putting yourself in danger with with where the house actually is located. I I drove by it recently.
Onjalé Scott Price:And to go on to someone's property and take a sign. And so that made me really think, okay, when I think of Black Lives Matter, I think of like like Rob said Rob said, just not just about the police or about the military, about our government. It's it's about people. And so we need to respect that people's lives have not mattered in the past and now. And that's what we're promoting is that black lives do matter.
Onjalé Scott Price:And so when someone wants to take that sign, they want to remove that, what are they what are they trying to say? Are they trying to say that black lives don't matter? Are they trying to say that they don't want black lives to be equal? And so I know we can't necessarily speak to what that may what people may be meaning when they take those signs. But I wanted to talk to you, Adam, a little bit about how it how it made you feel to have your signs continually stolen.
Onjalé Scott Price:And you've told me about the things that you've done to try to deter people from stealing them. I hope you can share some of those things. But just what's it been like to to have those stolen and and knowing that someone is is taking them from you on purpose?
Adam Subhas:Yeah. Thanks, Anji. And thanks for including me in this conversation. It's really I'm I'm really happy to be here. Yeah.
Adam Subhas:It's it's been an interesting, process. You know, I I I feel like I, first put up a sign right after, hearing about George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. And I I feel like I felt very similarly to, to you, Bob, and and you, Olivia, that, you know, it's a statement. It's something that that, is is, projected out into the community and kind of affirms that black lives matter because they do matter. And like you said, Olivia, it's also, you know, a reminder to me every time I come home that I see it, and it's a reminder of, you know, this what am I gonna do personally to to to make sure that that black lives matter?
Adam Subhas:And so I I put out this sign, and, initially, it lasted about a week before it got taken. Let me let me rephrase that. It lasted about a week before someone took it and put some very racist kind of flyers in my mailbox along alongside them taking the sign. And, you know, I I then had kind of went through the channels of reporting it to the police. Turns out putting something in someone's mailbox is a federal crime.
Adam Subhas:And so they you know, they're real kind of repercussions for someone taking this action. It's illegal. But, also, just from a from a, you know, standpoint of me taking action, I said I couldn't let this stand. So I went out and got two more signs and put them out. Those lasted all of, I think, twenty four hours, before they got taken again.
Adam Subhas:The next thing I did was put some up in the tree so that they couldn't be taken from the road. And then the last thing I did was put I actually had a friend of mine weld a a metal sign that I put into the ground with a post hole digger and put concrete footings on it. And it turns out, Anji, I I don't know if I told you this, but that sign got stolen just a couple of days ago. So they managed to sit there, and I don't I don't know how long it took them to dig this thing out. But they dug it out, and it's gone now.
Adam Subhas:So, this is real effort that that people are putting into us, you know, silencing this these, these voices that I think all of us are are we wanna lend our voice in support of black lives in in the ways that we think we can. This has been framed by the media or some some people in the media as a free speech issue, and I just think that's that's not the right way to think about this. I mean, this is a it's a human rights issue. It's it's a personal issue, an issue of of, you know, humanity and and respecting everyone in their lives, and not just their lives, but their voices and their contributions to society and their minds and their thoughts and all that that goes with a life. And the fact of that matter is that these black lives and and everything that comes along with that has been have been repressed and not listened to and sidelined for so long.
Adam Subhas:And, you know, taking this sign and silencing this voice is just, I think, one more example of how this this happens in all sorts of ways in our community. And it's just it's really frustrating to see that happen, but I won't stop putting signs out. So I gotta think of the next thing to do to to prevent this sign from getting stolen.
Onjalé Scott Price:I think I'll
Rev. Will Mebane:give you an go ahead, Anji.
Onjalé Scott Price:I'm sorry. I just wanted to say I I think it like you said, it goes to show how voices have been stifled in the past. Is that if you just put a sign out and people don't wanna see the signs, they take the signs. I I think that really speaks to this movement and how strong this movement is that people are trying to silence it in that way is that they don't even want to see it because they know that it means something and they probably don't necessarily agree with it. So it is frustrating to know that you put concrete footing down and it's it's still being taken.
Onjalé Scott Price:That means that people whoever these people are, they are working very hard to silence, which I think is a reflection of what we've been going through as people working hard to keep black people silenced. And and so it's a interesting dichotomy there.
Rev. Will Mebane:I was gonna give you one suggestion, Adam. I I think I think you've you've you've made heroic efforts to make sure your your sign remained in place there. We actually put ours on the roof. We we live we live on Main Street in Falmouth, a very busy area, heavily trafficked area trafficked area. And I knew there was a risk of the sign being stolen if we simply put it in the front yard.
Rev. Will Mebane:And so we had someone come and bolt it to the roof line. I'm still waiting, you know, for someone to make an effort to to access it or vandalize it in some way, but that may be your may maybe the next option for you to put it upon the roof. But that I wanna go back, though. Wanna challenge each of you to go a little deeper on this. Each of you has probably heard people say when you wear a button that says black lives matter or you carry a sign, you know, the retort from folks usually is, don't all lives matter?
Rev. Will Mebane:So how do you how do you respond to that? What do you say to someone who takes that posture? Whichever one of you would like to speak. Go ahead, Olivia.
Olivia Masih White:You know, it's interesting. As Adam was talking, I remember that last year, I put up a sign when some shooting had taken place. And I was con confronted by somebody in my church and says, don't all lives matter? Why did you put that sign? It just so happened that that person not only belongs to my church, but he also lives in my neighborhood.
Olivia Masih White:So I said, of course, all lives matter. But the sign I put there is because it's the blacks that have been marginalized. They are the one that the police have been going after. They are the one that lives is endangered. They are the one they haven't been treated, and that's why I had put my sign.
Olivia Masih White:Well shortly after that the sign disappeared. I'm not sure as to who took it. So my daughter-in-law happened to have another sign and so I put the second sign. It stayed there and I still have a sign and it had not been taken. But I the more I think about it that it is having that sign now, it gives people when they see it.
Olivia Masih White:And, you know, we're talking about living here in Falmouth. And I have seen the signs quite often in the houses that are not owned by African Americans, but these are people that is the white community. So it gives me hope that the community is getting behind in recognizing this is not fair, that the blacks' lives do matter, and there is some action that needs to be taken.
Rev. Will Mebane:Yeah. Thank you. You know,
Robert Antonucci:similar when people say that, you know, all lives do matter. There's no question about that. But here, we're talking about the issues of equity and discrimination. If everybody was equal in terms of what we're addressing, we wouldn't need that sign that said black lives matter. But black lives do matter because there has been discriminatory practices.
Robert Antonucci:There has not been equity among the races. And so though all lives do matter, we're rising to the top here about issues where it's not working. So lives of the blacks and lives of certain minority communities have to be addressed. And I come from the education world, both k to 12 and and higher ed. And we forever are talking about equity, in what we do, both in terms of students we admit, in terms of our curricula, but we haven't gone far enough.
Robert Antonucci:Times have changing. Times have changed. And as I said earlier, the call of action says we just we have to do more than we're doing now. And I think if we focus on the human aspect, if we focus on the issue of equity, and we focus on the issue of discrimination among and between races and genders, we'll make some progress. It's gonna take some long time.
Robert Antonucci:It's gonna take some hard effort by a lot of people. The sign as and the damage done to signs is one small issue. But if you look across this country in various segments of this country, the discrimination practices are far greater than we see here. That doesn't mean that we can't do more here in the community of Falmouth than our surrounding communities, but we need to look at it as the national priority. And I'm not sure the leadership at times see it as a national priority.
Robert Antonucci:So it takes people like us having a conversation about it and hopefully that will spread and people will begin to take it serious and make a difference.
Rev. Will Mebane:Adam, you have a a thought about retort? Yeah.
Adam Subhas:I guess, you know, that this the that retort, it it it's it's interesting because all of these things are you know, they're reactionary. Right? Their their reaction to seeing this statement and and almost you know, I feel like a lot of this and and I'm I'm guilty of this. I think all of us are that we get we get defensive about our own notions of what, you know, our values, what we what we feel. And and something like this, it's so it runs so deep in our culture that it's really hard for us to deal with, I think, as as a society.
Adam Subhas:And so this this reaction of all lives matter, I think, is it's it's the immediate, you know, defensive, like, well, fine, but, you know, all lives matter. And you're saying, you know, of course, all lives matter. But the fact of the matter is there has been this discrepancy in in between black lives and white lives for for centuries now. And this is a this statement, black lives matter, is a recognition, I think, of that. And the fact that it runs so deep, I feel like, makes it so much harder for people to kind of internalize and and deal with and and reconcile.
Rev. Will Mebane:And
Adam Subhas:that's that's just a hard thing to know what to do with. But the, you know, the other thing is that it's it is a reaction and a a defense to the Black Lives Matter movement. And I think that's an important thing to to to recognize for us too in terms of moving the conversation forward.
Rev. Will Mebane:I wanna ask my cohost, Anji, what do you say when people respond, well, don't all lives matter? Why why draw attention to black lives?
Onjalé Scott Price:It's it's interesting. I I was thinking about that this morning when I saw what happened in Lebanon with the the explosion in Lebanon and people are, you know, doing hashtag pray for Lebanon and send help to Lebanon. And I thought, in a way is this similar to the Black Lives Matter movement where we're saying in this moment right now something is happening in this country and they need help and they need prayers. Are there other countries who are saying, well don't all countries need prayer? Don't all countries need help?
Onjalé Scott Price:And I realized this is not a apples to apples comparison. It kind of made me think, is this when people ask that, I'm thinking, are you focused on the fact that this is a current movement for what has been happening like we've said for centuries? Or are you seeing this as as a a momentary thing that is going to be passing and it's just about right now and what we're seeing on TV with with police brutality? And if you're only focusing it on this moment right now and not realizing the history behind this movement or what this movement really stands for, then then you're missing the whole point. And so by saying all lives matter, you're you're telling me that you're missing the whole point.
Onjalé Scott Price:You're not understanding that we're seeing this movement right now. Yes. But this movement has been coming and it it needs to keep going. I'm not sure if if I articulated that in the best way.
Robert Antonucci:You did.
Onjalé Scott Price:Okay. Thanks. So when people say it to me, I do say, well, of course, all lives matter, but we're just focusing on the ones that have not always mattered. Can we at least agree that at some point, whether you wanna believe that was in recent years or hundreds of years ago, that black lives did not matter. At one point, I would would have been considered three fifths of a person.
Onjalé Scott Price:I think we can agree that that meant that my life as a whole did not matter. So could you at least understand why we feel the need to say that? And conversation doesn't always go well, but it starts somewhat of a conversation.
Rev. Will Mebane:Well, thank you each for sharing that because I'm I'm still grappling, frankly, for how to respond to that. And maybe I'm I'm grappling because it touches me in a very deep and an emotional way when someone asks that. And I I guess I'm just not understanding why it's so hard for them to understand why such statement such a statement is necessary. So I've been trying out a a few responses. I'm curious as to what you might think about them.
Rev. Will Mebane:So I had a young girl ask me just a few weeks ago. Her mom came to me and said, I'm trying to teach her, you know, why these people why people are saying black lives matter, why we see these signs and all. And she said, can you help her? So one of the things you do as a priest and people come to you and look for guidance and counsel and what have you. And so I I spoke with the with the little girl, and I said, well, think of it like this.
Rev. Will Mebane:You live in a house, and every house in your community, every house in your street matters. Right? It's important to everybody. And but if your house catches on fire, your house needs to matter more than the allergist at that moment because we need to put out the fire. The fire has to be put out.
Rev. Will Mebane:And she seemed to grasp that and and and and agree with that. I was talking with an older person a few weeks ago and was trying to have the same conversation with them. So and I said, well, let's think about it like think about it like this. So when we if you and I show up in the emergency room at Falmouth Hospital at the same time, and I've got a sprained ankle from jogging around the block, and you come in and you've just been in a serious car accident, and you've got broken bones, and you are bleeding, which patient is going to get the attention patient should get attention at that time? I would think you would be incredulous if they attended to my sprained ankle while they left you bleeding on the emergency room floor.
Rev. Will Mebane:So I don't know if that was helpful or not, but I'm just looking for ways, real, light ways, so people are trying to understand why at this particular moment, it's so important to embrace the fact that black lives matter. Anyone have a a comment or response to, you know Yeah. I I
Robert Antonucci:Oh, go ahead.
Rev. Will Mebane:And I'll come to you, Bob. Yes.
Robert Antonucci:Yeah. No. Go ahead.
Olivia Masih White:I I feel like it it's interesting since when I came from India, it really shocked to me how African Americans were treated. They were not treated like they were equal human. I went on to college and I studied and my field is genetics and I taught at a university for twenty years. And one of the thing that I always big lecture in every class, I will talk about that every individual, every human being exactly alike, genetically speaking. We have now identified.
Olivia Masih White:We have completed the whole human genome. We have about 200,000 to 25,000 genes in our body. So let's assume we have 20,000. 90 nine point nine percent of genes are exactly alike in every human being. 99.9.
Olivia Masih White:Almost hundred just point 1% different. So if you're looking at 20,000 genes you have out of 28,000 only 20 genes are different than all the other. So if anybody needs to go to the hospital for blood transfusion or organ transplant, you don't look at the skin color, you don't look at the color of the eyes, you don't look at the texture of their hair. Those 20 genes that make you different from other human beings are simply the ones that give you either color of the eyes or your skin color. That domain, genetically speaking, we are exactly all alive.
Olivia Masih White:So the question shouldn't even come to be asked whether all lives matter or not because we are we are all human beings, and it has been way too long where people have not recognized the fact that everyone, every single human being is exactly alike. We are all made similarly. So so that's that's my genetics lesson.
Rev. Will Mebane:Thank you, professor. Thank you. Bob, let's hear hear hear Yeah.
Robert Antonucci:No. I was just responding. And that was that was great, by the way. Was responding to your comments about, you know, the examples that you used. I thought they were perfect.
Robert Antonucci:What did those two examples do? It heightened the awareness of the issue. And I think that's all we can do at this point. We heighten it, and we need to begin to show respect for what this movement is all about. But the more difficult part will be the action that we need to take moving on.
Robert Antonucci:But if we don't heighten the awareness, and and it's good to feel uncomfortable about it. When people question us, so we question them. You know? I don't mind being uncomfortable. I don't mind making other people uncomfortable.
Robert Antonucci:That doesn't mean it's in in an antagonistic way. It's a matter of an issue that we need to discuss and be open about it. I think on a college campus, we see that openness. Whole differences of opinion exist. If we could take that and just make that part of society where people don't feel threatened because we talk about it.
Robert Antonucci:And so this is not a threatening movement. It's more a movement to respect humans as you just heard and to ensure that everyone is treated equally.
Rev. Will Mebane:So we are living in a different time. Some people are saying that this is a tipping point, that this is unlike any other period in this young nation's history in terms of people coalescing around the need to demand justice for all of its residents. And so we asked some people in the community to respond to a question. So how is this moment different from other moments when there were demands for civil and human rights in this country. So join me.
Rev. Will Mebane:We're gonna take a listen to what some of those responses were, and we'll come back to the studio and ask you to weigh in as well.
Henry St. Julien:How is this moment different?
Diane Jemmott:This moment in time is different, I think, first and foremost, because it's global. The timing of it during a global pandemic has contributed to the press coverage and media coverage and social media and the attention of people from all over the world. This is different because people are engaging from all walks of life. We have come to a realization that this life just isn't equal and on a lot of different fronts. Therefore, we need to band together to make this a better place to live.
Diane Jemmott:And I
Susan O'Brien:think that with the murder of George Floyd, that has been used as a catalyst through social media, to not only have the systems that continue to work against many in this country also catapulted it into a an international spotlight. So I think that that's really different than what we've had in the past, least in this country.
Henry St. Julien:So right now, the difference is, there is a heightened, acknowledgment. We see Travon Martin, and then we're seeing, George Floyd, and then we actually saw it on TV and we're like, there is something wrong. And I think the whole world can see it, that there was something wrong. You saw human suffering right there. You couldn't deny it.
Diane Jemmott:So people are asking questions. People are getting involved. They're expressing an interest in trying to understand how we've allowed this country to grow into a place where there is no equality. If we have equality, because of the fight that has gone on for years and years and years, if we develop a system that has equality, we could live in a much more harmonious place. People need to embrace difference.
Diane Jemmott:They need to understand we don't all have to be alike. We're never gonna be alike. We don't all have to think alike, but we do need to be respectful. And we need to understand that you are not privileged because of the color of your skin or how much money you make or what your parents' last name is. It's because you're a human being, and we're all human beings in this together.
Onjalé Scott Price:So we we heard people say a little bit about why they feel like this moment is different. There's the aspects of social media, this being more of a global issue now, getting more awareness in in not just our community here in The United States, but worldwide. We've seen that there have been Black Lives Matter protests on pretty much every continent. I don't maybe not Antarctica, but all all the inhabited ones. You know, so we we're seeing a lot of support.
Onjalé Scott Price:And I have my own opinions on why there's so much support, but I'd like to hear from from our guests. What do you all think? Why do you think that this movement is so different, and why is it so different this time? Start with Olivia.
Olivia Masih White:I I think that you framed it what you said is really true that there is social media now, you know, information from one minute to the other. You can mobilize everybody within seconds, and everybody can put a sign up. So it's the social media. Also, I will say that this pandemic have something to do with it. We are under so much stress, And I will also say that there is something to be said about this generation, not the people from the other generation and not your generation will either.
Olivia Masih White:But this generation, the activism, I think that is really very contagious. I think these young people had some benefit that the blacks did not have hundred years ago, fifty years ago. They are giving opportunity for education. There have been role models for them like Martin Luther King and John Lewis. But I think that this is the activism is the young generation that I think is really flaming the fire of activism.
Onjalé Scott Price:Were you talking about my generation? Because I I would I'm hoping that you're including me.
Olivia Masih White:Yes. I I'm talking about this generation of the twenties and thirties and forties, you know, younger than me. My
Robert Antonucci:And younger than me.
Onjalé Scott Price:Alright. That's us, Adam. That's us.
Adam Subhas:Alright. Adam
Onjalé Scott Price:or Bhagavad, do you guys wanna comment on that?
Adam Subhas:Yeah. I can I'll jump in here. Well, thanks for your your vote of encouragement and support, Olivia, for our generation. And, you know, there are people younger than us too. I mean, I'm I'm considered a millennial, and we're already old compared to Gen z or I think it's Gen z is the the the ones who love it.
Adam Subhas:Right? So That
Onjalé Scott Price:that sounds right.
Adam Subhas:And and, you know, they're doing they're doing amazing things too. I mean, just think about the the way that high schoolers were able to mobilize after all the school shootings that happened
Olivia Masih White:Mhmm.
Adam Subhas:Last year. I mean, it's just it's just incredible to watch. And but I think you're right that we've we've built on so much activism that has already happened in this country and all over the world. I mean, I think the the example that I come back to, you know, I feel like our generation has made some some progress in racial issues, also LGBTQ issues, but we can't deny the influence that, you know, Stonewall and the Stonewall riots had on on really framing the issues for us and setting things out in in this really stark way. And and this time we're living in right now, I feel like is this is another moment where everything is kinda getting framed in this way and just lays it out.
Adam Subhas:Right? And maybe it's that we're all stuck at home and so this is this is all we see. There's no sports. There's no you know, live TV isn't really a thing anymore. And so this is this is what we're seeing.
Adam Subhas:Right? And we're we're stuck with it. And I think at a more philosophical level, at least for me, it's you know, I particularly with Black Lives Matter and and civil rights in general in this country, you know, we we're feeling stuck and we're feeling like we're not moving, we're not progressing. And I see that, you know, now I think it's it's become even more clear that that is reflected in a lot of the you know, some of the progress with the Black Lives Matter movement that it you know, there is there are constant barriers to progress in terms of systemic racism and all these things. And I think it maybe has taken a global pandemic to really frame those issues in a way where all of a sudden people like me and, you know, other white people and people who are not black are actually starting to see that and really internalize it for for for the the systemic issues that are that are in front of in in facing the black community in The US.
Robert Antonucci:Let me just jump in, I think, and just pick up on that because I think both comments both people making positive comments. This is a a a on a side, I think everyone being at home during this pandemic and having to talk to each other and not going to work or working from home, and I'm talking singles, married, anybody, we spent a lot of time together. And we're using television as we're doing right now and social media much more than we ever have. So I think the issue came to light a lot quicker than if we had been in normal times when we're all rushing to catch a subway or rushing to work or rushing around shopping. The whole country slowed down.
Robert Antonucci:The whole world slowed down. And maybe that's a lesson to all of us. We were able to slow down and finally focus on an issue that's important to us. And if we use this issue as the foundation to be better, then I think we'll be in good shape. I'm not discouraged.
Robert Antonucci:I'm pretty positive. I'm optimistic. It's not gonna be easy, but I think we're gonna get there.
Henry St. Julien:What do you think, Reverend Will?
Rev. Will Mebane:Well, I've been saying to to folks that I've seen this movie before. You know, I've lived through the period of the civil rights movement in the sixties, fifties, sixties, and during the Jim Crow period in the South. And and we were we took to the streets, we marched and protested. And some of us did other things to get the attention of the authorities, the powers, and principalities. And Adam mentioned the Stonewall riots and the what a catalyst that was for moving to advance civil rights, human rights for the LGBTQ community.
Rev. Will Mebane:And so there's just been so many times in the six decades I've lived where I've seen periods when I thought this is gonna make the difference, you know, after Rodney King was so brutally beaten and that was captured on camera. It's one of the first times I remember a brutality being captured on camera, and it didn't change. It didn't change anything. And then, you know, we've lived through so many other instances of brutality and treating other people with dismissing other people and and all. So I appreciate it, Bob, that your expression of of hope because of the vocation that I chose or that was chosen for me, I have to hold on to hope as well.
Rev. Will Mebane:And I don't have a lot of hope in our systems. My hope is not in whoever is in the White House or whoever's on the Supreme Court or whoever's in congress. I think all those things are possible and all those things can be helpful and help move the agenda forward. But as a personal faith, you know, my hope is in a higher power. My hope is in God.
Rev. Will Mebane:And and so I'm glad to see the young folks out there doing what I was doing forty, fifty years ago. I hope that if we're blessed with grandchildren and our grandchildren won't have to be out there forty, fifty years from now doing the same thing. So that's where my that's where I am right now.
Olivia Masih White:Yeah. You know, I I'll I'll jump in. I I I came to United States in 1962, and I lived in Dallas, Texas. I was in Southern Methodist University. I was going to seminary.
Olivia Masih White:And there was a seminary student from Alabama, and we became very good friends. And his parents invited me to come and visit him in Alabama. Reverend Kellogg, never forget the name. So, of course, back in 1962, I had just arrived in this country, my first year. So there was another Indian girl, and she and I rode Greyhound bus, and we went to Alabama and stopped, bus stop, and there were sign, colored only.
Olivia Masih White:And the cops stopped us because we were just headed to the bathroom, and and at that time, I did not know anything about America. Pointed us to the colored bathroom and the water fountain. So I had the experience of drinking from the colored bath faucet and going to using the bathroom. Of course, you have to go. You have to go.
Olivia Masih White:You drink the water. Didn't seem any different. And I came back. In many ways, I had the privilege even though that I'm a person of color, but I had the privilege that the other blacks didn't have. I was living with a white professor's family.
Olivia Masih White:I am in academic field. Later, I married a white man. And so I did not go through all of those things. So in many way, I had the privilege what I now many call it as white privilege. I had all those privilege.
Olivia Masih White:And when you have those privileges, you don't realize others who don't have that. So I see the hope now, Will, that lot of allies are coming up, and these are the white allies that are now realizing that they have lived through privilege. They had the privilege which is not being fair to the African American. So I see the hope in the movement is not just this young generation that's coming up, but also the older generation that have realized their privileges and are now are the allies in supporting this movement.
Onjalé Scott Price:That's an excellent point, Olivia. That was that leads into something that I was thinking when I think about why this moment is different. There's there's so many aspects. There's there's a social media aspect of I personally have not watched the video of George Floyd's murder. I couldn't bring myself to do it.
Onjalé Scott Price:And I and I toiled with that, like, do I watch this and know what happened to this man and be able to to feel that? Or do I do I know in myself that I can't watch that video and sleep at night? And so I still have not watched it. But I know that the Ron Rodney King's beating was taped. But I think in in this day and age, you could save that video for yourself and you can play that for others and for future generations and and we can share that.
Onjalé Scott Price:So I while I don't think that we forgot about what happened to Rodney King, the the country and other people did because it was like, oh, yeah. That was that bad thing that happened, like, back then and I've never seen it and never will see it. But now that we have so many videos and we have such access to it, it's it's going to be, I think, more difficult for people to forget. And unfortunately, these things are still happening. I've seen more videos, you know, come out of police using, in particular the same kneeling approach that killed George Floyd.
Onjalé Scott Price:I've seen that in other videos. And again, it's not just about police brutality. It's about systemic racism, what we're seeing in our academic communities. But I what I also see is, as Olivia said, a lot of allies. When I look at videos from the sixties and seventies and marches and my mom tells me about what it was like my family's from Los Angeles.
Onjalé Scott Price:So when she tells me what it was like and I see pictures and it's described to me, it's almost always just black people. It's almost always just us standing up for ourselves. And so now when I look at a crowd, it's it's a mix of people, older people, younger people, you know, people of of different colors. And so I think that is how the movement is is different is that there are different people involved. And and that to me is encouraging.
Onjalé Scott Price:It's cautious optimism, of course, because there is a lot of work to do and there are some people who are gonna be here for the moment and not for the movement. But what I am seeing now with so many different allies, people saying, I don't know if I'm if I've not been an ally, but I want to be an ally. How do I how do I become an ally? I was trying to order some books for myself from different black owned businesses and even our local bookstore here and I couldn't get them. They were sold out because so many people are trying to educate themselves.
Onjalé Scott Price:So those are the kinds of things that that keep me cautiously optimistic about how this how this movement is different than than other ones.
Rev. Will Mebane:Well, I thank you all for contributing. Bob, did you want to make a comment there?
Robert Antonucci:No. No. This is good. I just this conversation has been wonderful.
Rev. Will Mebane:I am very grateful. One thing I would say to in response to both Olivia and Angie's comments, the movement, this current movement needs allies, but we also need accomplices. And that's a distinction for me. Yes. We need people cheering over from the sides and saying, I'm with you, and I'm gonna send some money, or I'm gonna be supportive in some other ways.
Rev. Will Mebane:But we need people to be accomplices and to stand with black folks shoulder to shoulder and be willing to endure whatever pain, suffering, loss might come as a result of being part of part of the this Black Lives Matter movement. And I think you've given us an idea for another for next month's show. The subject of white privilege has arisen and is on the table, and so maybe we will have the conversation next month about white privilege. We're grateful to the good folks at FCTV, particularly Debra Rogers and Allen Russell for their assistance in making this platform possible and helping to produce this show. And there is a commitment from FCTV that Angie and I will be back on a regular basis for more conversations about what is happening in the world, but particularly with a focus on race and racism.
Rev. Will Mebane:So please make sure you continue to check the schedule for FCTV. And who knows? We may catch you on the street one day asking you to respond to to one of the questions we raised. So my thanks today on behalf of Onjale Scott Price, the cohost and coproducer of this this show. Thanks to Bob Antonucci, to Adam Shubash, and to Olivia Masih White for your participation, your presence with us.
Rev. Will Mebane:Until we meet next time for the conversation. I'm Will Mebane.
